UK Riots
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Just watching SKY NEWS as I write. The PM has more or less given the police force a free hand in dealing with this mess. They have never faced this kind of thing before and I fear that they will not be able to deal with it.
These gangs know fully well that they can get away with these activities now! What will be done with the current hundreds that have been arrested? And the figure will probably run into many thousands by the time the Police get some kind of temporary control back. The answer as the current law stands is, very little. Maybe a short period of time in a remand centre (holiday camp).
Now that these gangs can see what is possible for them there is no hope of stopping them with the current UK laws as they stand. This scenario has slowly been developing since the abolition of capital punishment around 45 years ago.
I am not suggesting that capital punishment be brought back but I do feel that 'fire must be fought with fire' and using water cannon (as proposed) will be a joke when chasing organised gangs up narrow streets with mobile (blackberry) phones.
Seeing as these gangs are using technology to organise looting, arson and carnage, isn't it about time the elected authorities did likewise to control these gangs movements! Then again if this was tried I imagine the 'do gooders' would stop it in its tracks via the Courts.
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I also can't understand or agree with the use of water cannon and rubber bullets in N. Ireland, but for the authorities to think it's 'not British' on the mainland. I find that very insulting to the people of N. Ireland...what are they...second-class citizens? At least some of the occasional riots in N. Ireland are by people who imagine they have some kind of legitimate political point. Here are the mainland it's just pure thuggery, yet the thugs are accorded a greater degree of consideration. That's just plain wrong.
Not that it makes much of a difference from a practical perspective, as there are apparently only 6 water cannon in the whole of the UK...all in N. Ireland...and the authorities there are probably reluctant to give them up just as the marching season is about to kick off. One per city wouldn't make much of a difference anyway, but the principle still stands. I just think it's typical of the attitude of this centralised Westminster government towards the provinces whatever side of the Irish Sea....after all, they nicked a load of police from Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool to guard their precious capital just when those cities needed the manpower themselves.
Paucity of water cannon notwithstanding, rubber bullets ought to be the mimimum response at this point.
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A voluntary curfew in some cordoned off areas would be possible.
Honest citizens can then help by staying away.
Anyone in those areas at those times without a very good reason [like their shop is on fire!] would then be subject to arrest for 'obstructing a police-officer in the course of his duties', anyone wearing a mask/hood is also doing this; also anyone carrying [potential] weapons or 'goods' for which they have no proof of purchase [i.e. theft or receiving stolen-goods] are also subjected to additional arrests. Obviously violent disorder, assault etc, and looting and arson are other offenses... The police don't want to confront gangs of yobs... just pick them off in ones and twos as they go out to start their unlawful business. Also the UK idea that you only prosecute the most serious of the offenses and that any sentences/punishments are concurrent, is also crazy... the police/cps should prosecute any wrongdoers for every single thing they have done wrong, individually and with consecutive sentencing or punishments. A young looter on the radio this morning said, '...they'll probably never catch me, and if they do what are they going to do, it'd be my 'first-offense'... so an asbo?' [laughs!]
Darcus Howe is a well known opinionated chap.
He never lets facts get in the way of his argument.I'd be very surprised if the police did 'blow his head off' - the initial reports are he was shot twice, once in in the bicep and then in the heart; his handgun was recovered from the scene by police.
OK, we don't know exactly what happened, but there will be an inquiry.
Armed police do not attempt to arrest a known criminal in a taxi without good cause.
If they then shot him to protect themselves or others when he presented a clear and present danger, either because he is seen with a handgun or is suspected of simply having a handgun and he behaved suspiciously or non-compliantly, then I see it as his risk, not there's - no one can carry an illegal handgun in a public place without risking something happening to them - either from other armed gangsters or the police.
The police are far from perfect, but then again neither are the criminals.Darcus is inflaming a situation that doesn't need his help.
OK, the feral gangs of disaffected youths [predominantly black] do hate authority and the police, they have no respect for their families or others and are ill-educated and have few chances of getting out of the hole they have partially dug for themselves by not embracing opportunities that were available to them. They seek some meaning in their lives and being in a gang gives them that - they know where they stand in its hierarchy and think that being thuggish to others gives them 'respect'. It beggars belief that they believe that taking things that don't belong to them is acceptable ['I duz it becuz I wantz some free-stuff!', as a rapper said this morning].The vast majority of crime that has been committed during these recent riots is mindless violence, arson and semi-organized thievery. By burning down a police station it distracts the police from catching them later as they load your bags full of stuff from the smashed up shops. These yobs are robbing NOT 'protesting'.
There was an interesting radio interview on the BBC this morning... Two guys in masks were talking to the reporter in a Manchester shop. He had initially thought they were looters - however, they were the owners. One of them explained that they were masked to protect themselves from retribution. They had spent the night fending off looters with their own baseball-bats as they tried to rip off the shop's security shutters; all this happened as the police stood a few yards away doing nothing to help [they were clearly more than 'dissatisfied' with the police response!]. He said that they had set up hidden CCTV cameras and now had good pictures of these would be looters. He said, 'We'll use those tomorrow...'; thinking they meant to hand them to the police the reporter was caught on the wrong foot when he said, 'No... we'll just sort it; we know where they live; we'll see tomorrow...'. I suspect the baseball bats will be out again as I type. If the police won't defend honest citizens then I'm afraid that vigilantism like this will happen.
These yobs really must be taught a proper lesson to stop it being repeating [no, 'it's your first offense, here's an asbo or a few hours community service, and don't be naughty again...' - they won't respect that and it won't change them; a few weeks in 'solitary-confinement' or 'hard-labor' in a cold and damp ex-army camp might cause some introspection, but it's most unlikely as it'd 'infringe their human-rights'
], but we must look deeper to see how we might offer something is mainstream society that is an attractive alternative to gang membership - otherwise alienated youth will continue to erupt in anti-social behavior... -
On the lighter side....women in uniform....Phwwaawwww!!!
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@alan fraser said:
I also can't understand or agree with the use of water cannon and rubber bullets in N. Ireland, but for the authorities to think it's 'not British' on the mainland. I find that very insulting to the people of N. Ireland...what are they...second-class citizens? At least some of the occasional riots in N. Ireland are by people who imagine they have some kind of legitimate political point. Here are the mainland it's just pure thuggery, yet the thugs are accorded a greater degree of consideration. That's just plain wrong.
Interesting and true point. This may require a heavier hand than the current conventional wisdom of tolerance and political correctness espouse. The two courses of action are to let the goon squads run themselves out or use forceful police action. Both may work, but the former presents wrongdoers with continued future license to conduct the same activity with reduced fear of repercussions, the latter may be unpopular but it will certainly send the message that there will be consequences and perhaps reduce incentive to repeat these offenses.
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@alan fraser said:
On the lighter side....women in uniform....Phwwaawwww!!!
She can wrestle me to the ground anytime!
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Alan
Thankfully the marching season is nearly over! We had a few bad nights of rioting in Belfast, and a few smaller towns, but it was directed primarily at the police. This was not politically motivated this year. It was thought to have been started by paramilitaries who want to stir tensions up between the two sides of the political divide in interface areas of the city. This, they hope, will bring public money into the deprived areas to placate the "masses". Again, thugs trying to fill their pockets by using little "fuck-wits" (pardon my french - but that is what they are!!) to ruin the peace here. We do not need this and I have no problem in water cannon or plastic bullets being used - but the police tactic of standing back and taking video of people in masks, in the hope of affecting arrests at a later date is a complete waste of time. Pepper spray or CS gas will debilitate them, snatch sqauds arrest them and then when they are arrested, 20 or 30 good lashes with a birch rod across their backs will put the stoning out of them. The bunny hugging do gooders who spout about rights - get a life - these bottom feeders and the arseholes who jump on their coat tails ( the 31 year old primary school worker in court this morning is an example) deserve to get 40 kinds of shit beat out of them each and every time they get involved in this behaviour. The damage done to London's international image will be immeasurable and will have an effect on the Olympics next year no matter what they do from now on. Its not a good situation.
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Couldn't agree more Dermot. In the light of one of the earliest sentences for looting...1 day...which he'd already served...so he was free to walk, it's a racing cert that we'll be getting repeats of this right up to and through the Olympics.
Doesn't anyone in a position of power in this country have any balls at all? I see the corner of the carpet is raised already and the brush is hard at work. -
I think you
ll find it was only 1 day because he just stole 2 t-shirts. While Im not condoning it, any theft is wrong, its not as if he set buildings on fire or anything. The more serious offences are being referred to the Royal Court because the judges in the civil courts just dont have the power to hand out strong enough sentences.
What they should be doing,though, is contacting the parents of these young thugs and make them responsible for for the actions of their kids and fining them as well. What the hell are they doing letting kids as young as 7 roam the streets at night anyway? Outrageous. -
The police seem to be on top of this tonight and fighting back ...
[flash=800,600:22w0sm5p]http://www.youtube.com/v/OLyKniH8z9Q[/flash:22w0sm5p] -
Goonster, yes that may be so. I also understand that he was a student and that the criminal record he just earned for himself will probably do him much more harm than a short time in jail; however even the police are now expressing dismay at some of the sentences being handed out. There really does need to be a sea-change in the judicial system.
I see that a petition on the No. 10 website for all benefits to be withdrawn from convicted rioters has far surpassed any other, even though it's only been running for 24 hours. When it reaches 100,000 (which will any minute) it has to be debated in parliament. -
@alan fraser said:
(...) benefits to be withdrawn from convicted rioters (...)
That'd have no positive long-term effect whatsoever. Quite the contrary, I think.
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HM-gov's petitions web-site is overwhelmed and closed this morning!
The 'Benefits' should be replaced with an 'Offenders Allowance' [i.e. much less money] while they serve their 'sentence'...
And while we're at it... how about confiscating all of their assets/possessions [and if they are under 16 those of their parents too] - during the time they do their sentence - perhaps some 'community service' [e.g. cleaning the mess up, picking up dog-shit etc] that lasts seven days a week for many months - at all times wearing unfashionable, but distinctive 'pink' pajamas, woolly bobble-hats and wellington-boots, and also a clearly visible geolocator tag [necklets?]; plus night-time curfews while tagged, reporting to 'sign-in' etc etc - any infringements to be punished by permanent loss of their assets, allowance and custodial sentence of the same length - preferably 'in solitary'. The 'sentence' could also include compulsory 'education' in army-bootcamp style settings...These oiks will never stop until they realize that it's not in their personal interest to continue behaving like savages. We all have 'rights', and many of us also know we have 'responsibilities' towards others - they must learn that too... They can't abuse our rights without loosing theirs
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Probably, Stinkie...I'm not supporting it, merely pointing it out. People have to eat, when all is said and done.
You just beat me to it TIG. I imagined developing some sort of system in which those households responsible for criminal damage (not just in these riots, but generally) were subjected to bailiffs going in and removing non-essential goods up to a specified value. I'm thinking stuff like X-Boxes, computers, mp3 players, hi-fi systems etc. A single TV would stay; it's not just cheap entertainment, but a fairly essential source of information. If they haven't got such stuff, then community service would be in order.
I know it's a generalisation, but many of these dysfunctional families calling themselves deprived are remarkably indulgent when it comes to pandering to their kids...which is why the kids are the way they are. I saw numerous examples of this when I was a teacher...kids on free school meals wearing designer gear I couldn't afford (or more accurately was unwilling to pay) for my own kids. It sound like Daily Mail stuff, I know, but it happens.
They simply don't react to appeals for more self control...so hit them where it hurts. Auction the stuff off to pay for the cost of repairs or for restitution. -
@alan fraser said:
Auction the stuff off to pay for the cost of repairs or for restitution.
How about having them work to earn it back? The amount of money they'd have to earn wouldn't be just the retail price. Suppose an item cost them £20. Assuming they're on benefits, it would've cost the community more than that - that'd have to be factored in.
Obviously this wouldn't adress the root (or rather rhizome) of the problem. I'm seriously out of my depth here - and I suspect most politicians are too.
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all that has to be done with Love to get the proper results
i guess that is the problem, that neither both have or has ever considered that action for whatever reasons
or am i wrong ? -
Juan Love, Juan Heart
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I completely understand the outrage and disgust, but when the dust settles and order is restored, how do you fix the issues long term? All of the aforementioned strategies of punishment may give some short term satisfaction to those affected, but will not relieve the underlying causes. I fear you are too hasty to seek more severe forms of control and a tightening of noose as a way to teach a lesson to the spoiled youths, which will feel good today, but have heavier consequences in days, years and generations to come. The lid has blown off of a long time boiling pot of water. A tighter lid and hotter fire will only cause the lid to blow even harder the next time. In the U.S. we tried to do the same thing for many decades and for many decades, people suffered. Generations will be born and bred to hate your country for it's subjugation of the under privileged. Until you learn to see this as a social justice issue first, things will not change. It is easy to say this is purely criminality, when you are looking downward from a position of privilege and have never known the oppressive nature of mass desperation. Even if you feel this generation to be lost, you must find compassion in your heart for the children born into this desperate tinder box of shared insignificance. I do pray there is resolution in your country and that the long term resentments created by these riots don't turn into something a lot more carnal and bloody than some stolen sneakers and burning buildings.
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'Social Justice'
These oiks get their 'everything' from us for giving back 'nothing' in return.
They are ill-educated - and that might be partially 'our' fault - but they do have opportunities in their lives that they choose to ignore and pursue this path. There are many with very similar backgrounds and surroundings who have NOT turned out 'bad' - it is nature v. nurture - they have a predisposition to be 'twats' and there upbringing has done nothing to check it - it is parents who 'have' children - not schools, not 'society' - and they must bear the brunt of the 'raising' and if it fails, directed anger...I think the reaction of many 'ordinary' UK citizens is that for several decades we have let this 'under-class' grow - first instigated by the Conservatives' policies under Thatcher and then 'nurtured' by the Labor government.
In parallel we have adopted laws, rules and 'political-correctness' that favor the criminal's 'rights' but rarely those of the victims.
Sentencing for many crimes is a joke - the criminals aren't worried about what will happen to them and the rest of us look up to the skies in desperation.I don't know the full circumstances of 'the oik who was given 1 day jail for stealing two tee-shirts'... but let's look at it another way... He was only 'punished' for one thing - stealing two tee-shirts... BUT he was out and about during a riot - not the action of a responsible citizen; he entered previously secured premises and took things that did not belong to him and that he knew belonged to others, intending to permanently deprive them of there possessions - it is aggravated 'theft' - theft by finding, theft by burglary, or 'robbery' if the owner were present, or knowingly receiving stolen goods if someone handed them to him, shop-lifting if the store was open [it wasn't] or dozens of other offenses etc etc; then if there were others with him when he did this it was a clear conspiracy to commit trespass/robbery/burglary/theft/arson/violent-disorder/obstruction-of-the-police etc etc... conspiracy IS a serious offense perhaps worse that the thing he was charged with... Simply being a 'hoodie-twat' should be an offense punishable by law
I sometimes wonder what our CPS and Magistrates/Courts are thinking...
If someone commits multiple offenses then they get usually charged with the most serious [OR the one that is likely to 'get a result']. I say charge them with all possible offenses and let the courts decide. But then sentencing is based on the worst and everything is 'concurrent' not 'cumulative'...I think that one of the more ridiculous downgrading of offenses in the UK has been "TWOC". Taking Without the Owner's Consent. Previously if you stole a car it was 'theft'. A car is quite valuable [compared to a tee-shirt! - but maybe NOT my car
] and therefore it should attract a relatively severe punishment. Then it was downgraded, a 'theft' is when you take something intending to deprive its owner of it permanently, but if you steal a car trash it and then leave it a burnt out shell 50 miles away you can argue you haven't that intention, as they get it back [although by then they don't want it!]. So now it is a 'lesser offense' - even when it's put the owner to considerable 'inconvenience', and effectively ruined it and thereby effectively its owner does no longer has the use of it, BUT it's not been legally 'stolen' 
- craziness..........Until the UK legal system presents real deterrents, hen a whole raft of crimes like this will continue apace...
As it is the authorities will continue perusing the soft-targets [they have to reach some 'targets' after all] - like people 'criminally' putting the wrong things in their recycling bins, or trying to apprehend a burglar in their own home and being done for assault/unlawful-imprisonment etc........... Downgrading domestic-burglaries to be far less serious if no police-officer attends and a crime-number is simply given over the phone for the insurers records, just moves them off the 'serious crime statistics' but it does nothing to solve these problems.PS:
A fascist is only a liberal who has been mugged.... -
Fine sentiments Adam; the problem is that a good many of these people aren't underprivileged. Some of the first people dealt with by the courts include a student, a youth worker, a classroom assistant and a graphic designer.
As for the many youths involved, you're not underprivileged if you can go on the rampage wearing £100+ designer trainers with jacket to match and coordinate your actions via Blackberry Messenger. That's just insulting people who are genuinely underprivileged ...and not rioting.
There have been many initiatives from both the law-abiding poorer sections of the community (who suffer this kind of thing on an almost permanent basis...but it's out-of-sight, out-of-mind to most politicians), as well as from individual ethnic groups and young people in general to the tune of "Not in my name."This is a question of morality vs immorality and complete amorality.
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