UK Riots
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Most of our continental neighbours wouldn't think twice about the use of baton rounds and water cannon in these circumstances. In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the order was given to shoot looters in New Orleans on sight...the effect was immediate.
Politicians here talk about policing by consent and adopt the attitude that we don't do that sort of thing here...we're British. I find it hard to determine whether this is a laudable attitude, or actually part of the root of the problem...engendering the idea that such behaviour can be indulged in with impunity.This needs to be stopped now...by whatever means necessary...but I have the uneasy feeling that it will just rumble on with continued inadequate police response. Come September and the end of the school holidays it'll all be brushed under the carpet yet again and teachers will be expected to contain these animals once more...presumably using their Harry Potter powers and a pinch of fairy dust...because they certainly aren't given the support and resources for such a task. My wife's school just lost a dozen staff due to the cutbacks.
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@alan fraser said:
In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the order was given to shoot looters in New Orleans on sight...the effect was immediate.
I am not altogether sure whether that approach will work in this case. After all, what's going on, isn't 'mere' looting. The attack on the Nottingham nick, for instance, goes way beyond that. I'd be compelled to call that one an act of terrorism.
I do most certainly understand your sentiments, Alan, I'm just afraid things might escalate even further. And I don't want to pretend I have any idea what would be the right course of action.
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@unknownuser said:
The attack on the Nottingham nick, for instance, goes way beyond that. I'd be compelled to call that one an act of terrorism.
From wikipedia:
"The concept of terrorism may itself be controversial as it is often used by state authorities (and individuals with access to state support) to delegitimize political or other opponents,[6] and potentially legitimize the state's own use of armed force against opponents (such use of force may itself be described as "terror" by opponents of the state)."I don't think London police have no control over this bully groups. It is one of the oldest and best organized police force in the world. They know everything about each of them. They know what they had for breakfast, not to mention the preparing to bomb the police station.
I think the riots are organized by "elite" to make people hate and fight each other (police, black vs white, old vs young, left vs right, christian vs muslim...) cause this is the only way they can control them (us). To protect us from us, they will put us in chains justifying it with this scenes in London. This is what happened to Yugoslavia http://www.weightofchains.com/, and now it is global.Divide et impera
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when i was a kid i lived for a while in Heswall, then when young, for a while again, i lived in Liverpool. It shocked me then to see that your police was unarmed. I thought then that you were gentle and peace people and that violence and guns was a thing for the Scotland Yard and Sargeant Cork. ,._)
Yes, you have it difficult. You are pressed to deal with your true inner beliefs as a Nation and clarify them.
I think it would great for you to take out the burden of feeling an empire or a kingdom and descend to the feeling that you are alike the others are, just plain and simple people who likes and deserve to live in peace with each other. Politicians want to make it properly, in the British way, so said Alan. But the people here, as in Yugoslavia, does not understand why the police let the violents do what they did and are doing. There is something wrong here. -
you maybe right srx http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-qCFcjaC7Q
shame that the journalist did not let him explain better his speech. -
Just watching SKY NEWS as I write. The PM has more or less given the police force a free hand in dealing with this mess. They have never faced this kind of thing before and I fear that they will not be able to deal with it.
These gangs know fully well that they can get away with these activities now! What will be done with the current hundreds that have been arrested? And the figure will probably run into many thousands by the time the Police get some kind of temporary control back. The answer as the current law stands is, very little. Maybe a short period of time in a remand centre (holiday camp).
Now that these gangs can see what is possible for them there is no hope of stopping them with the current UK laws as they stand. This scenario has slowly been developing since the abolition of capital punishment around 45 years ago.
I am not suggesting that capital punishment be brought back but I do feel that 'fire must be fought with fire' and using water cannon (as proposed) will be a joke when chasing organised gangs up narrow streets with mobile (blackberry) phones.
Seeing as these gangs are using technology to organise looting, arson and carnage, isn't it about time the elected authorities did likewise to control these gangs movements! Then again if this was tried I imagine the 'do gooders' would stop it in its tracks via the Courts.
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I also can't understand or agree with the use of water cannon and rubber bullets in N. Ireland, but for the authorities to think it's 'not British' on the mainland. I find that very insulting to the people of N. Ireland...what are they...second-class citizens? At least some of the occasional riots in N. Ireland are by people who imagine they have some kind of legitimate political point. Here are the mainland it's just pure thuggery, yet the thugs are accorded a greater degree of consideration. That's just plain wrong.
Not that it makes much of a difference from a practical perspective, as there are apparently only 6 water cannon in the whole of the UK...all in N. Ireland...and the authorities there are probably reluctant to give them up just as the marching season is about to kick off. One per city wouldn't make much of a difference anyway, but the principle still stands. I just think it's typical of the attitude of this centralised Westminster government towards the provinces whatever side of the Irish Sea....after all, they nicked a load of police from Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool to guard their precious capital just when those cities needed the manpower themselves.
Paucity of water cannon notwithstanding, rubber bullets ought to be the mimimum response at this point.
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A voluntary curfew in some cordoned off areas would be possible.
Honest citizens can then help by staying away.
Anyone in those areas at those times without a very good reason [like their shop is on fire!] would then be subject to arrest for 'obstructing a police-officer in the course of his duties', anyone wearing a mask/hood is also doing this; also anyone carrying [potential] weapons or 'goods' for which they have no proof of purchase [i.e. theft or receiving stolen-goods] are also subjected to additional arrests. Obviously violent disorder, assault etc, and looting and arson are other offenses... The police don't want to confront gangs of yobs... just pick them off in ones and twos as they go out to start their unlawful business. Also the UK idea that you only prosecute the most serious of the offenses and that any sentences/punishments are concurrent, is also crazy... the police/cps should prosecute any wrongdoers for every single thing they have done wrong, individually and with consecutive sentencing or punishments. A young looter on the radio this morning said, '...they'll probably never catch me, and if they do what are they going to do, it'd be my 'first-offense'... so an asbo?' [laughs!]
Darcus Howe is a well known opinionated chap.
He never lets facts get in the way of his argument.I'd be very surprised if the police did 'blow his head off' - the initial reports are he was shot twice, once in in the bicep and then in the heart; his handgun was recovered from the scene by police.
OK, we don't know exactly what happened, but there will be an inquiry.
Armed police do not attempt to arrest a known criminal in a taxi without good cause.
If they then shot him to protect themselves or others when he presented a clear and present danger, either because he is seen with a handgun or is suspected of simply having a handgun and he behaved suspiciously or non-compliantly, then I see it as his risk, not there's - no one can carry an illegal handgun in a public place without risking something happening to them - either from other armed gangsters or the police.
The police are far from perfect, but then again neither are the criminals.Darcus is inflaming a situation that doesn't need his help.
OK, the feral gangs of disaffected youths [predominantly black] do hate authority and the police, they have no respect for their families or others and are ill-educated and have few chances of getting out of the hole they have partially dug for themselves by not embracing opportunities that were available to them. They seek some meaning in their lives and being in a gang gives them that - they know where they stand in its hierarchy and think that being thuggish to others gives them 'respect'. It beggars belief that they believe that taking things that don't belong to them is acceptable ['I duz it becuz I wantz some free-stuff!', as a rapper said this morning].The vast majority of crime that has been committed during these recent riots is mindless violence, arson and semi-organized thievery. By burning down a police station it distracts the police from catching them later as they load your bags full of stuff from the smashed up shops. These yobs are robbing NOT 'protesting'.
There was an interesting radio interview on the BBC this morning... Two guys in masks were talking to the reporter in a Manchester shop. He had initially thought they were looters - however, they were the owners. One of them explained that they were masked to protect themselves from retribution. They had spent the night fending off looters with their own baseball-bats as they tried to rip off the shop's security shutters; all this happened as the police stood a few yards away doing nothing to help [they were clearly more than 'dissatisfied' with the police response!]. He said that they had set up hidden CCTV cameras and now had good pictures of these would be looters. He said, 'We'll use those tomorrow...'; thinking they meant to hand them to the police the reporter was caught on the wrong foot when he said, 'No... we'll just sort it; we know where they live; we'll see tomorrow...'. I suspect the baseball bats will be out again as I type. If the police won't defend honest citizens then I'm afraid that vigilantism like this will happen.
These yobs really must be taught a proper lesson to stop it being repeating [no, 'it's your first offense, here's an asbo or a few hours community service, and don't be naughty again...' - they won't respect that and it won't change them; a few weeks in 'solitary-confinement' or 'hard-labor' in a cold and damp ex-army camp might cause some introspection, but it's most unlikely as it'd 'infringe their human-rights'
], but we must look deeper to see how we might offer something is mainstream society that is an attractive alternative to gang membership - otherwise alienated youth will continue to erupt in anti-social behavior... -
On the lighter side....women in uniform....Phwwaawwww!!!
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@alan fraser said:
I also can't understand or agree with the use of water cannon and rubber bullets in N. Ireland, but for the authorities to think it's 'not British' on the mainland. I find that very insulting to the people of N. Ireland...what are they...second-class citizens? At least some of the occasional riots in N. Ireland are by people who imagine they have some kind of legitimate political point. Here are the mainland it's just pure thuggery, yet the thugs are accorded a greater degree of consideration. That's just plain wrong.
Interesting and true point. This may require a heavier hand than the current conventional wisdom of tolerance and political correctness espouse. The two courses of action are to let the goon squads run themselves out or use forceful police action. Both may work, but the former presents wrongdoers with continued future license to conduct the same activity with reduced fear of repercussions, the latter may be unpopular but it will certainly send the message that there will be consequences and perhaps reduce incentive to repeat these offenses.
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@alan fraser said:
On the lighter side....women in uniform....Phwwaawwww!!!
She can wrestle me to the ground anytime!
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Alan
Thankfully the marching season is nearly over! We had a few bad nights of rioting in Belfast, and a few smaller towns, but it was directed primarily at the police. This was not politically motivated this year. It was thought to have been started by paramilitaries who want to stir tensions up between the two sides of the political divide in interface areas of the city. This, they hope, will bring public money into the deprived areas to placate the "masses". Again, thugs trying to fill their pockets by using little "fuck-wits" (pardon my french - but that is what they are!!) to ruin the peace here. We do not need this and I have no problem in water cannon or plastic bullets being used - but the police tactic of standing back and taking video of people in masks, in the hope of affecting arrests at a later date is a complete waste of time. Pepper spray or CS gas will debilitate them, snatch sqauds arrest them and then when they are arrested, 20 or 30 good lashes with a birch rod across their backs will put the stoning out of them. The bunny hugging do gooders who spout about rights - get a life - these bottom feeders and the arseholes who jump on their coat tails ( the 31 year old primary school worker in court this morning is an example) deserve to get 40 kinds of shit beat out of them each and every time they get involved in this behaviour. The damage done to London's international image will be immeasurable and will have an effect on the Olympics next year no matter what they do from now on. Its not a good situation.
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Couldn't agree more Dermot. In the light of one of the earliest sentences for looting...1 day...which he'd already served...so he was free to walk, it's a racing cert that we'll be getting repeats of this right up to and through the Olympics.
Doesn't anyone in a position of power in this country have any balls at all? I see the corner of the carpet is raised already and the brush is hard at work. -
I think you
ll find it was only 1 day because he just stole 2 t-shirts. While Im not condoning it, any theft is wrong, its not as if he set buildings on fire or anything. The more serious offences are being referred to the Royal Court because the judges in the civil courts just dont have the power to hand out strong enough sentences.
What they should be doing,though, is contacting the parents of these young thugs and make them responsible for for the actions of their kids and fining them as well. What the hell are they doing letting kids as young as 7 roam the streets at night anyway? Outrageous. -
The police seem to be on top of this tonight and fighting back ...
[flash=800,600:22w0sm5p]http://www.youtube.com/v/OLyKniH8z9Q[/flash:22w0sm5p] -
Goonster, yes that may be so. I also understand that he was a student and that the criminal record he just earned for himself will probably do him much more harm than a short time in jail; however even the police are now expressing dismay at some of the sentences being handed out. There really does need to be a sea-change in the judicial system.
I see that a petition on the No. 10 website for all benefits to be withdrawn from convicted rioters has far surpassed any other, even though it's only been running for 24 hours. When it reaches 100,000 (which will any minute) it has to be debated in parliament. -
@alan fraser said:
(...) benefits to be withdrawn from convicted rioters (...)
That'd have no positive long-term effect whatsoever. Quite the contrary, I think.
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HM-gov's petitions web-site is overwhelmed and closed this morning!
The 'Benefits' should be replaced with an 'Offenders Allowance' [i.e. much less money] while they serve their 'sentence'...
And while we're at it... how about confiscating all of their assets/possessions [and if they are under 16 those of their parents too] - during the time they do their sentence - perhaps some 'community service' [e.g. cleaning the mess up, picking up dog-shit etc] that lasts seven days a week for many months - at all times wearing unfashionable, but distinctive 'pink' pajamas, woolly bobble-hats and wellington-boots, and also a clearly visible geolocator tag [necklets?]; plus night-time curfews while tagged, reporting to 'sign-in' etc etc - any infringements to be punished by permanent loss of their assets, allowance and custodial sentence of the same length - preferably 'in solitary'. The 'sentence' could also include compulsory 'education' in army-bootcamp style settings...These oiks will never stop until they realize that it's not in their personal interest to continue behaving like savages. We all have 'rights', and many of us also know we have 'responsibilities' towards others - they must learn that too... They can't abuse our rights without loosing theirs
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Probably, Stinkie...I'm not supporting it, merely pointing it out. People have to eat, when all is said and done.
You just beat me to it TIG. I imagined developing some sort of system in which those households responsible for criminal damage (not just in these riots, but generally) were subjected to bailiffs going in and removing non-essential goods up to a specified value. I'm thinking stuff like X-Boxes, computers, mp3 players, hi-fi systems etc. A single TV would stay; it's not just cheap entertainment, but a fairly essential source of information. If they haven't got such stuff, then community service would be in order.
I know it's a generalisation, but many of these dysfunctional families calling themselves deprived are remarkably indulgent when it comes to pandering to their kids...which is why the kids are the way they are. I saw numerous examples of this when I was a teacher...kids on free school meals wearing designer gear I couldn't afford (or more accurately was unwilling to pay) for my own kids. It sound like Daily Mail stuff, I know, but it happens.
They simply don't react to appeals for more self control...so hit them where it hurts. Auction the stuff off to pay for the cost of repairs or for restitution. -
@alan fraser said:
Auction the stuff off to pay for the cost of repairs or for restitution.
How about having them work to earn it back? The amount of money they'd have to earn wouldn't be just the retail price. Suppose an item cost them £20. Assuming they're on benefits, it would've cost the community more than that - that'd have to be factored in.
Obviously this wouldn't adress the root (or rather rhizome) of the problem. I'm seriously out of my depth here - and I suspect most politicians are too.
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