Money as Debt
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@mike lucey said:
...I think we should be looking at how Barter Systems work. It was the first means by man to exchange materials, products, services and maybe should be adopted again now that we have the computer, or at the very least, be in place...
We used to have it here, in the "Eastern Block", Mike. Not the people, the citizens (mostly) but the countries between each other so it was in "big deal".
It wasn't fun, believe me!
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@unknownuser said:
... I am wondering how fast SCF will get an e-mail or rather a call asking to delete this thread. I am also wondering how long will Google be able to keep the videos on-line.
Don't worry they are far too powerful to worry about such minor irritations. But here's another accumulation of power that is worth thinking about:
According to the Financial Times reporter who broke the story, Rashid said that “around 20 per cent of all the servers sold around the world each year are now being bought by a small handful of internet companies - he named Microsoft, Google, Yahoo and Amazon”.
Want to borrow some information?
Chris
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Read this today -
Over the course the past year, Obama, Bush, and congress have brutally generated $10T in new child debt to maniacally rich multinational financiers. The NY Times chart, below, doesn't count Obama's more recent $2T+ of jackpot payoffs to his filthy rich owners, raised by flogging the new American destitute:
To put it in perspective, over the course of the past year the United States government has increased what its children owe to international financiers by more than all of the following events, combined (adjusted to 2009 dollars):
* World War II ($4,400B) * World War I ($1,400B) * The Vietnam War ($700B) * The Iraq War ($600B) * FDR's New Deals I & II ($500B) * The Korean War ($450B) * Putting a Man on the Moon ($240B) * The S&L Giveaways ($250B) * The Lousiana Purchase ($220B) * The Marshall Plan ($115B) * The U.S. Civil War ($106B) * The American Revolution ($16B)More perspective, all adjusted to 2009 dollars, over the last 12 months:
* Congress has paid Citi Group 3 times more than it cost to rebuild Europe after WWII * Congress has blown enough to buy every single share of GM stock, 7,285 times over * Congress has stuffed enough cash in the pockets of AIG executives to fight the U.S. Civil War * We could have, instead, bought 20,000 loaves of bread for every human on Earth * We could have bought every American taxpayer a 385hp 2009 Porsche 911 Carrerra S or 911 Cabriolet, in your choice of style and color. Most households would get a set of two, a lot of homes would get four or more:http://fdralloveragain.blogspot.com/2009/03/child-debt-to-bankers.html
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Might be worth to look on this too
http://soundsfamiliar.blogspot.com/2009/02/money-as-debt.html
Note: I am not saying that the monetary system we have is good for people in general. But the money-as-debt document do have some serious errors. -
@chrisglasier said:
Anyone found anything to counter these assertions?
@notareal said:
Might be worth to look on this too
http://soundsfamiliar.blogspot.com/2009/02/money-as-debt.htmlThat's good, thanks.
Chris
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@notareal said:
Note: I am not saying that the monetary system we have is good for people in general. But the money-as-debt document do have some serious errors.
Thanks notareal for the link. The main thing has been confirmed by the adversary:
@unknownuser said:
This process creates money--most of the money invested in banks isn't physically there, even though you never notice when you withdraw from your checking account. This is because banks have to keep some amount of reserves in their vaults. In the United States, this is a required legal fraction called the Reserve Requirement (currently at 10% and not likely to change any time soon).
and
@unknownuser said:
I doubt anyone could get a B.S., let alone a PhD, in economics without knowing this basic fact about our monetary system, at least not from any major accredited university.
Sorry, I don't have PhD in economics. I had no @$### clue that they are pumping up the money. This issue become obvious in those hard economic times!!!
I didn't understand the thing about interests... probably authors of the film went too far, but my main point stays confirmed : mortgages are up to 90% virtual money, expected to come back to the bank, when you sign an agreement and agree to pay back your 'real', hard earned money with all interests!!
One could say - this make the economics grow FASTER! ... fools ... it is the price we have to all pay right now!
Watch the second video and check how poor countries are being ENSLAVED by their debts purposely prepared by the central bank, to make profits on their natural resources.
USA don't $%$%^ care about wars in Africa. They couldn't bribe the Saddam Hussein so they prepared an excuse to invade his tyranny. Virtuous 'peace makers' ... I don't have proper emoticon here.. It all makes me sick.
And don't get me wrong. I have great respect for Americans, native especially, but it is just the banking system that makes nations dance as it wishes.
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@unknownuser said:
mortgages are up to 90% virtual money
It's called fractional-reserve banking, risky business when a crisis hit (like now, lucky we have not seen massive bank runs)... If some individual would do it, it could possibly be called a embezzlement... some even might say it's sort of pyramid scam... but I think that should be reserved to investment banking or other shadow banking.
What to do then, it's obvious that we need banking, but more controlled. Failure was that a shadow banking system evolved, more and more of the world's transactions were conducted by institutions (investment banks etc) that were not subject to traditional banking regulation (fractional-reserve banking is regulated, even it's a scary system).
Worth to read: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/ (sorry, no conspiracy theories or debunking)
Basic info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_banking_system -
@notareal said:
It's called fractional-reserve banking, risky business when a crisis hit
I have learned my lesson, Notareal.
As correctly explained in the film this system has nothing to do with being fair. How can one demand interests based on non existing money. It was approved by authorities, to sustain race between nations in their development and this greed is why it has been approved by a law. -
I cannot call it fair. But perhaps this is:
"In an Islamic mortgage transaction, instead of loaning the buyer money to purchase the item, a bank might buy the item itself from the seller, and re-sell it to the buyer at a profit, while allowing the buyer to pay the bank in installments. However, the fact that it is profit cannot be made explicit and therefore there are no additional penalties for late payment. In order to protect itself against default, the bank asks for strict collateral. The goods or land is registered to the name of the buyer from the start of the transaction. This arrangement is called Murabaha. Another approach is EIjara wa EIqtina, which is similar to real estate leasing. Islamic banks handle loans for vehicles in a similar way (selling the vehicle at a higher-than-market price to the debtor and then retaining ownership of the vehicle until the loan is paid)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking -
Money is simply barter with deferred actualisation. I barter some effort for some DeferredBarter tokens and later I exchange them for actual goods. Nobody in their right mind would want to try to build a functional economy with actual physical barter. It was tried in the past. That's why they invented Corn Exchanges etc.
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I tapped into the Zeitgeist video, covering some of the same ground in a more direct matter, but then it goes into some sort of Utopian rhapsody by some nobodies and NEW WORLD ORDER (somehow without states, an established anarchy?) no money,no work, no crime etc etc. If you believe this you might go over to the Obama Deception thread and duke it out with those guys (they are fearful of the New World Order).
I wonder what the makers of these anti-money films feel about people stealing their movies? It occurred to me while watching that these aren't just cheap internet productions.
I do like the explanation about debt. It makes me so delighted to be paying interest on a house that is no longer salable for anywhere near the amount of the loan I have. But hey, I won't have to feel so sorry for the bank when I run out of work and tank. They never had the money in the first place!
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@pbacot said:
I wonder what the makers of these anti-money films feel about people stealing their movies? It occurred to me while watching that these aren't just cheap internet productions.
huh? many of these movies are encouraged to be distributed freely... it's about getting the message out there - not some form of money making venture.. they are practicing what they preach which to me, gives a comforting sense of legitimacy to their intent..the zeitgeist site even gives instructions on how to get their movies via torrents..
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/dloads.htm -
Oh, I see.
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@unknownuser said:
many of these movies are encouraged to be distributed freely... it's about getting the message out there - not some form of money making venture.. they are practicing what they preach which to me, gives a comforting sense of legitimacy to their intent
What a coincidence, we have a humugus baptist church down the road (we call it six flags over Jesus) that gives away free bibles on your first visit.
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
many of these movies are encouraged to be distributed freely... it's about getting the message out there - not some form of money making venture.. they are practicing what they preach which to me, gives a comforting sense of legitimacy to their intent
What a coincidence, we have a humugus baptist church down the road (we call it six flags over Jesus) that gives away free bibles on your first visit.
ha, yeah, i see what you're getting at. i do feel the church (in general) is a huge enterprise with those at the top having a #1 priority of maximizing profit..
i try not to listen to these messages blindly and for the most part, it's these writers and/or philosophers ability to put many things i see into words.. i'm a carpenter, not a poet.. i hope i'm not just buying into their crap or scheme but instead, simply agreeing with the main message..
so yeah, if you feel these productions are an attempt at 'tricking' me into some hidden agenda, please fill me in.. in general, i think i'm fairly open minded but maybe i really am missing something? -
@unknownuser said:
in general, i think i'm fairly open minded but maybe i really am missing something?
The important thing is not to be so open minded that your brain falls out.
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As a follow up on "Money as Debt" one has to watch "The Ascent of Money" is very up to date and touches on the current crisis. Find it very informative. It is sad that no one ever learns from the mistakes of the past, the same things happen over and over again.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ascentofmoney/
The series was run on BBC Knowledge and there is also a book.
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adding more fuel to this thread:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20090318&articleId=12793
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I prefer Douglas Adams' take on it. From the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:
@unknownuser said:
“This planet has — or rather had — a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn’t the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.”
Cheers.
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