Do humans have a free will?
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Eric & Pete,
(Am I ‘crazy’…?!)If you are atheists, you cannot explain entire “spirit” and part of the “soul”
but you are ‘proud’ about your freedom...?!!Paradoxically…:
CornelP.S.:
"The natural person () does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned*." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
(* - like an atheist...) -
@unknownuser said:
P.S.:
"The natural person () does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned*." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
(* - like an atheist...)Thanks Cornel, I coundn't have said it better myself. Funny thing about this quote is that religious people read it and feel sorry for atheists and atheists don't read it. Does 'Natural' maan 'atheist'? Does this mean spiritual/religious people are un-natural?
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Excellently put Tomasz, You have said a lot in a few shorts sentences.
Mike
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Hi, thanks Plot for bringing in a new interesting thread. I intend to go back to the old one as well.
I am sure we have free will. Without it we couldn't take responsibility for our actions.
If we won't exercise this gift, we will be like an anonymous, colourless mass.As already pointed out, very often we are being pushed to do something, very often our emotions win and we do what in fairness we don't want to.
There are people who doesn't care and do what they were told to without a trace of reflection.
On the other hand, there are people with very well formed minds (souls), being able to exercise their gift.Tomasz
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Cornel wrote:
@unknownuser said:
If you are atheists, you cannot explain entire “spirit” and part of the “soul”
but you are ‘proud’ about your freedom...?!!Um, Cornel focus for a second, you the one that insists on mentioning souls and spirits, let me try again .... I am athiest and I have spirits in a pub and soles on my shoes. I do not believe in ghosts holy or not, heaven nor hell. I do believe jesus existed, but not as the son of God born to a virgin but rather a very socially liberal dude with a magnetic personallity and a posse.
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Eric,
per your request,Voila versions of expression “the natural man”,
from different English translations of The Bible:“nonspiritual man”,
“people who aren’t spiritual”,
“the sensual man”,
“a beastly man”.Using 'Bible online' you can see those contexts...!
(1 Corinthians 2:14)Cornel
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Eric, I disagree that the concept of freewill requires a religious underpinning.
There is a chemical, biological aspect to the question as well. In some ways this is an issue related to another thread about people being rewarded for their abilities.
Over the years I have come to believe, much to my dismay, that we are the result of how we are wired and our cheimistry. You are bright because you are born bright. You work hard because you have been hard wired to be that way. You are gay because you are wired that way. You are an axe murderer because you are wired that way. You are a hot momma because your hormones are raging and many years later, you are not because the hormone supply is cut off. You try to repair your wiring with Ritalin, or Lithium, or what have you, because free will won't fix the problem. Chemicals do.
You may have some free will in some smaller areas, like do I eat a hot dog or a cheese sandwhich, but I would bet even your preference at that moment is determined by a host of chemical reactions taking place in your body at that moment.
I believe that in the book Freakonomics, the fellow used stats to show that individuals adopted at birth were more likely to have the intellect, intersests, income level, drug and sexual behaviour of their biological parents than that of their adoptive parents. So much for nurture. ( so if you gave birth to a messed up kid, you don't have to brow beat yourself anymore)I wish I believed otherwise. This is not desireable for me, but my observations have led to this inescapable conclusion.
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Susan, great points. I disagree with you that we disagree, I think we agree and here's why. I think the question the way it has been discussed here is whether there is a force other than physical or historical (personal history, i.e. upbringing) that influences our everyday comings and goings. I fully agree with you that chemistry plays a big role in predisposing us for most behaviors, being wired a certain way. The idea, however, that our path thru life is somehow predetermined at birth by a higher power or somehow influenced by 'him', is what I just don't see. Perhaps I was remiss in mentioning chemistry in my original post but I lump that in with the biological factors of learning.
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@unknownuser said:
Eric & Pete,
(Am I ‘crazy’…?!)If you are atheists, you cannot explain entire “spirit” and part of the “soul”
but you are ‘proud’ about your freedom...?!!Paradoxically…:
CornelSorry, I don't see a paradox. What freedom am I proud of? What is the opposite of free will?
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You are right, Susan,
“we are the result of how we are wired”, spiritual or nonspiritual:“Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:19-23)
Eric,
You can’t see that paradox because of an interposed 'ilusive free will'!Cornel
P.S. (re.‘chemistry’): Alchemists were 'avaporated' long time ago… Sorry for this inconvenient! -
@unknownuser said:
(P.S.: Mike, practically you were in attendance for a “word from Cornel”, for your amusement, weren’t you? Perhaps your soul and spirit will became more important…!?!)
Far from it Cornel, but would you not agree that a person's humour
can often prove the existance of their Soul or Spirit? I often
judge a person this way! A humourless person often could be
described as lacking in soul / spirit. Hey! it appears that JC
had a good sense of humour from what I understand. It was not all
work and no play, would you agree?%(#0000BF)[Jesus was a joyful person, continually urging his followers to be
joyful. He explains to his disciples, "I have told you this so that
my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete" (John 15:11)]
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=1276&contentID=63084&shortcutID=22379
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And a pretty good magician I hear too.
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Yes Mike, you are right,
Jesus Christ “had a good sense” for everything… but majorities, seeing a text like this:"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad….” (Matthew 5:11-12)
,… they won't understand…
It's a kind of "magic" joy, Solo!
Cornel
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@unknownuser said:
“nonspiritual man”
(...)
“a beastly man”.
Hmm ... "Beastly": "lacking intelligence or reason", "resembling a beast", "abominable". Very nice, Cornel. The Word of God, eh? Shove it. Deep.
I have no problem with religious folk whatsoever, but the likes of you? Reli-racists, the lot of ya. Elitist, arrogant twats.
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Cornel, to me, you don't sound like you have a lot of joy. I can't imagine that you are a happy soul. Everything you write is so dour and sad. I wish you could let go of your burden and have some more fun.
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@unknownuser said:
..."Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad….”...Cornel
This explains a lot! :`)
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@solo said:
...I too am athiest...
I make choices based on my values and morals and I accept the consequences of those decisions, this gives me the conclusion that I have free will.Pete, as an Athiest where do you get your values and morals? Curious.
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Eric, good question.
I believe in man, I honestly live with a belief that the majority of people are good with good intentions.
I was brought up to trust people until they prove untrustworthy, respect people unless they show disrespect and obey the laws of the land.
I try to help when and how I can and not because I am told to or required to, I treat people the way I hope they would recipricate, I try and teach my kids honor and character based on the way I live my life and not by a set of biblical rules.I evaluate myself constantly and try live a life of virtue, and not for a reward of everlasting life in heaven.
I do not believe christianity/religion has a copyright on morals, actually based on what I have seen religion is responsible for more hatred and death, not forgetting deceit, pedophillia, martyrdom and greed to be even closely associated with good morals and honest values.
Atheists have nothing to fall back on. We are on our own and it is necessary for us to find a moral life. We have to be objective and rational. Mysticism won't work and we know it. Atheists have something no religious person can enjoy and that is the certainty that our moral decisions are based upon a knowledge founded in reality and not faith in some unprovable, murky mystic awareness. Faith is belief without knowledge.
okay lets lighten this up a bit ....
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Pete, faith is not belief without knowledge, it is belief without proof. Subtle but critical distinction.
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Stinkie,
You didn’t follow my advice to see Bible contexts of terms such “nonspiritual man” or “a beastly man”…! Using a ‘search machine’ or a ‘concordance’, you can find many instances of them and you will be elucidated!Susan,
I’m not fanatic, masochist, machiavellist, ‘under burden’, “dour and sad”, etc. and I have more than enough fun, but I cannot aford to alterate God’s Word.
For example I cannot name a sin as: a mistake, a defect, an imperfection, an inconvenient, etc. Why?!:
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)Tomsdesk,
I’m wondering if “This explains a lot!”, because, at first, we have to clarify Jesus Christ included expression: “on my account”.Pete & Ron,
Faith is a belief with proof. (…not subtle…). Just an example:
“… and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” (Malachi 3:10)Cornel
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