Do humans have a free will?
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Alan, I doubt Cornel believes in evolution.
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@solo said:
Another question I had as a kid was when an infant dies they are said to go straight to heaven, now if God knew that was going to happen and as the religious instructors say that the baby was innocent and free of sin, was this to get more angels or test the parents?
Sorry to refer back to a quote from the first page of this topic (and go a little off topic), but I remember debating this issue with my Christian Summer Camp group leader when I was 15: in one discussion he explained that a part of a Christian's duty was to spread "the good word" ensuring as many souls would enter heaven as possible (which seems after all to be the ultimate goal of Christianity). In the following day's discussion he explained the infant death situation which Pete questioned above. I just couldn't follow the logic: God granted us free will and so to ascend to heaven we must choose to become Christians, but as babies are recognised even by Christianity to lack the cognitive skills to make such a decision they get a "free pass" into heaven? So at what point does this "free pass" expire? 1 yr old, 5 yrs old, 18 yrs old? As Pete asked, wouldn't this mean that infant deaths are actually a boost to the "heavenly statistics"? Then my inquisitive teenage mind hit on a major contradiction between the two day's teachings: I asked our group leader, "You said yesterday that it is a major part of every Christian's duty to teach others the "one true path" so thay they may enter heaven when they die?" He agreed. Then I asked again about the "free pass" rule for infant deaths and he said yes, babies automatically ascend to heaven. So then I asked what if a person, who regarded themselves as a Christian decided that their only purpose in life was to "help" as many other souls ascend to heaven as possible and that the simplest and most effective way of doing this was to murder infants, then wouldn't the "evil" act of murder contradict the "good" act of getting more souls into heaven? My group leader replied that, of course murder is inherently an evil act, so regardless of any positive outcome the perpetrator could not be said to be a Christian and would therefore burn in eternal damnation. Then I asked the final logical question: If someone KNOWS that they will go to hell for eternity for the murder of infants, but weighing this fact up against the benefit of all these souls ascending to heaven they decided to carry out the massacre anyway, haven't they then made the ultimate sacrifice for others? I never did get a straight answer from the poor guy, he just kept saying, "but murder is evil". I knew that, but I didn't need a book to tell me.
"Without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."- Steven Weinberg
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thats a great anecdote, Jackson. I have to say I feel a bit sorry for your poor group leader (I was one of these nasty, questioning children too
)@jackson said:
@solo said:
"Without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."- Steven Weinberg
Oh, I like that line. of course he does not talk about religion converting people without hope, people with no goal in mind who do bad things, to find a new purpose in their lives and help others. but nevertheless, a amusingly sarcastic remark!
to come back to free will:
if we look at an animal that is very simple in it's actions - a crocodile for example. a scientist will have no problem to predict what the crocodile is going to do. if he stirs the water, it will come to him. if he moves violently, it will bite. if he doesn't move at all, it will go away.
so from our point of view we can't really talk of a free will, because we know what it is going to do.but perhaps the crocodile itself is absolutely convinced, that it decided to approach that noise in the water and bite the poor creature. it is not aware of the fact, that this action was absolutely predictable to other, more intelligent beings.
therefore, if a being, far more intelligent than us humans, is able to predict our actions with as much certainty as we can do with the crocodile, this observer may not grant humans a free will.
to us that is utterly unimportant, because we live under the believe, that our actions are results of our own decisions - free will. the same may be true for the crocodile - it feels absolutely free in it's decisions.
it is all a matter of your point of view.and that is why I think, we are free enough in our decisions.
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Alan,
God, using different writers, inspired them (even dictated them) His Word to have a precise and complete communication with us – The Scriptures).
It wasn’t a coincidence that the Pope, like Athanasius of Alexandria and others decided the same components (books) of the Bible – God inspired them, also!Mike,
It’s difficult to understand the Bible language, because many terms ar loaded with additional significance. You must read the entire Book, at least one time!
If not, you will be in a ‘dangerous’ position like David_H: hard to comprehend or solve “why is Philemon part of the Bible?”.*“Oy Vey!”,*David_H,
I read inclusive that ‘pretense Bible’: “the Book Of Mormon”…Cornel
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Whether we truly have free will or not is probably less important than if we perceive that we do.
It's a little like the nature of matter. That desk in front of you is actually made up of particles so insubstantial compared to the emptiness surrounding them that there is practically nothing there. Yet you have no choice but to interact with it as if it was a solid object. Similarly, there has to be a concept of free will, because without it we have no concept of good and bad choices, no virtue, no evil, no crime....just predetermined response.
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@alan fraser said:
Whether we truly have free will or not is probably less important than if we perceive that we do.
It's a little like the nature of matter. That desk in front of you is actually made up of particles so insubstantial compared to the emptiness surrounding them that there is practically nothing there. Yet you have no choice but to interact with it as if it was a solid object. Similarly, there has to be a concept of free will, because without it we have no concept of good and bad choices, no virtue, no evil, no crime....just predetermined response.
Without freewill actions will still have inderminant out come. At least thats what Chaos theory whould tell us.
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@chango70 said:
So NO we don't have 'free will' in a absolute sence, but we do have it in a limited sense.
nicely said, chango.
that means, we asume to have a free will as long as we are not able to look behind our own decisions. but we don't need to be afraid, because we will never be able to do that. our mind is just not able to go beyond it's own limits.so, as you said, the definition of a 'free will' is relative. so I think it is save to say:
In a human scale, we have a free will
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“…our own decisions…”?!
“But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.”
(Isaiah 64:8)
"[i]human scale" [/i]!!?
“O LORD, what is man that you regard him, or the son of man that you think of him?”
(Psalms 144:3)The enigma of ‘free willing’ is deeper than present discussions!
Voila a more realistic starting point:
“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” (Romans 8:20-21)Cornel
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Solo wrote:,
“I doubt Cornel believes in evolution.”I believe in devolution.
Jackson,
No one will “go to hell for eternity” for sins, because Jesus Christ paid for them!
Since you are confused about the “way of salvation”, you cannot comprehend the status of babies.Cornel
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Slightly OT again. Regarding the question of infant mortality, this makes interesting reading.
http://politicsplusstuff.blogspot.com/2005/12/roman-catholic-church-reconsiders.htmlThe RC church only recently "informally" changed its mind about the destination of unbaptised infants. Previously, they did indeed go to Purgatory. So now it's all right...it's official...they only go to Limbo. The problem is that organised religion is doing this all the time....with or without God's permission. Taking a fixed position on this issue, like anything else, makes as much sense as taking an eternal, unmoving position on fashion.
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Amazing how the bible can be twisted to support your convenience. I bet Cornel can even find a passage that have nothing to do with squat that will even support the Iraq war.
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@solo said:
Amazing how the bible can be twisted to support your convenience. I bet Cornel can even find a passage that have nothing to do with squat that will even support the Iraq war.
I am pretty sure that's happened already
. It's pretty scary. -
@unknownuser said:
CraigD,
re. your "Humans DO have free will!!"There are a few conditions…
See an example!:
”…and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free[.” (John 8:32)Cornel
You are obviously not married...
HAHAHA -
Solo & Chongo...,
If you already read the Book of Daniel, you don’t have to wait for me …!
(re. Iraq)Cornel
P.S.:
Versions of Proverbs 19:13, for CraigD:
“…a quarrelsome wife is as annoying as constant dripping.”
“…a wife’s quarreling is a continual dripping of rain.”
“…the contentions of a wife are a constant dripping.” -
Great thread! I'm a bit late to it so forgive me. chongo70 I'm really digging your comments, great approach.
I'd like to add that from my atheist perspective the idea of free will is a purely religious construct, meaning that it can only be discussed within the framework of some religion. Without that it's quite absurd because it requires me to imagine someone in my head other than me. My actions are determined by the way my thoughts developed as I aged and how they were formed by my parents, peers, and environment. There is no entity (God) upon which to pin that developmental influence. That being said, is it fair to say that atheists have free will and religious people do not on the basis that their actions are either preprogrammed by or at least influenced by the word (will) of their God?
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@unknownuser said:
Solo & Chongo...,
If you already read the Book of Daniel, you don’t have to wait for me …!
(re. Iraq)Cornel
P.S.:
Versions of Proverbs 19:13, for CraigD:
“…a quarrelsome wife is as annoying as constant dripping.”
“…a wife’s quarreling is a continual dripping of rain.”
“…the contentions of a wife are a constant dripping.”Cornel
Can you quote the entire Old & New Testament back to back? Am I supposed to be impressed by that?
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Eric you hit the nail on the head, Like you, I too am athiest and liberated from a scripted existence that most 'practicing' religious folk are restricted to.
I make choices based on my values and morals and I accept the consequences of those decisions, this gives me the conclusion that I have free will. Unlike Cornel for instance, who really does not have free will as he is trapped to the regiment of his convictions, all decisions need to be qualified by his book of quotes and parables, and second guessing based on an eternity of harps and hymns or sulfur and brimstone. -
Eric & Pete,
(Am I ‘crazy’…?!)If you are atheists, you cannot explain entire “spirit” and part of the “soul”
but you are ‘proud’ about your freedom...?!!Paradoxically…:
CornelP.S.:
"The natural person () does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned*." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
(* - like an atheist...) -
@unknownuser said:
P.S.:
"The natural person () does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned*." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
(* - like an atheist...)Thanks Cornel, I coundn't have said it better myself. Funny thing about this quote is that religious people read it and feel sorry for atheists and atheists don't read it. Does 'Natural' maan 'atheist'? Does this mean spiritual/religious people are un-natural?
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Excellently put Tomasz, You have said a lot in a few shorts sentences.
Mike
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