Do humans have a free will?

tomasz

Twisted definition Chango. Does it really have to be that complicated?
I can still understand it although it is in English and uses words I don't even use in my native language.
Let me try to simplify your definition - when I make a decision and think it is my own, it is just an option from multiple possibilities, which are limited? In your opinion, we just have an illusion of making a choice, in reality it is 'just' an option. It is what was a discussion in 'Matrix' between Neo and Architect, isn't it?

I haven't read about determinism, but from what you have written, it doesn't bother me if the options are limited or not. Still decision is mine. All right, it can be somehow evaluated. You could easily predict what my choice would be, in a certain discussion, based on what you already know about me. I doesn't matter for me and it doesn't mean your prediction would be correct. Am I reading your definition right?

Is it not a false path, trying to enclose our behavior in very rigid frames? I bet in reality they can be broken, although do not expect a prove from me.

Like in 'The Matrix' Love can escape all probabilities, in the way it was not expected by the architect.

I think, in the same way, we can just predict what is happening at a subatomic level, while the Love can make it work as it wants. Changing a water into a wine, in this light, it is just a simple trick.

bellwells

@chango70 said:

@bellwells said:

Pete, faith is not belief without knowledge, it is belief without proof. Subtle but critical distinction.

Ron, any knowledge thats worth two cents can be PROVED! Otherwise its speculation at best, hocus pocus at worst. Do you really think people should lay down their life for speculation? Where is the morality of that? There is this wonderful talk by Dan Dennett on Dangerious Memes http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html which applies to all religions and ideologies. Religion is like a virus or parasite. To use a Deleuzian term, they have the same 'engineering diagram'.

Huh..where did this come from? I'm stating the definition faith. I believe in God, yet I cannot prove his existence. I don't need to. And you don't need to ridicule those who do believe in God. Arrogance and secularism are a virus or parasite.

chango70

@bellwells said:

@chango70 said:

@bellwells said:

Pete, faith is not belief without knowledge, it is belief without proof. Subtle but critical distinction.

Ron, any knowledge thats worth two cents can be PROVED! Otherwise its speculation at best, hocus pocus at worst. Do you really think people should lay down their life for speculation? Where is the morality of that? There is this wonderful talk by Dan Dennett on Dangerious Memes http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html which applies to all religions and ideologies. Religion is like a virus or parasite. To use a Deleuzian term, they have the same 'engineering diagram'.

Huh..where did this come from? I'm stating the definition faith. I believe in God, yet I cannot prove his existence. I don't need to. And you don't need to ridicule those who do believe in God. Arrogance and secularism are a virus or parasite.

Ron clearly you haven't read my later posts. And I happen to think viruses are marvelous things.

To Quote myself from earlier:

"I feel I need to clarify my position on religion in order not to engender further misunderstanding.

Religion to me is a self-consistent meaning system that generates its own 'equilibrium' through endogenous set of beliefs. Humans are 'meaning-machines' because our mind is trained through language to understand the world through often linear explainations or 'meanings'. The world we live in is however a 'non-linear and dynamic complex system' that produces emergent phenomena which linear causality cannont explain fully. It is actually only in the last century that science started to engage with nonlinear dynamic systems in any meaningful manner. Witness the rise of Complexity theory, System Theory, Emergence, Chaos Theory, Cybernetics, Cellular Automata, Ecology to name a few. We are beginning to understand how complex entities such consciousness might arise from simple physical constructs such as neurons through structural organization and inter-relation of the neural network. It is true that science actually explains very little of the things that give people meaning in life, however it is heading in that direction!

Religions have the benefit of giving people a consistent set of 'meanings' through which enable them to 'interpret' the world around them or act in a consistent manner. However, the price of consistence is DOGMA (Bible quoting by our very own Cornel is one fine example). It is dogma, and the power structure that arise from dogma that get in the ways of different (I.E. Alternatives Religious or Mystical Revelations) and better (more evidence based, i.e. science) systems of explaining the world and they do so often violently.

As such, I have little or no problems with religious belief or religious people. It is religious dogma and its varioius articulations that gets on my nerves."

bellwells

OK, I should have read your previous posts before responding. For me, religion is a private and personal reverence for nature and the nature of things. As I said, I believe in God, but I'm not a fanatic about it. I believe in heaven and I believe I will "see" past loved ones there.

I have to admit I'm confused about the beginning of our universe. It's easier for me to believe in the Big Bang theory than it is for me to believe God waved his hand and....voila! This is where I get stuck. My belief in God cannot rectify or explain this dichotomy. I wonder if my belief system is more consistent with that of the Native American Indians.

chango70

@bellwells said:

OK, I should have read your previous posts before responding. For me, religion is a private and personal reverence for nature and the nature of things. As I said, I believe in God, but I'm not a fanatic about it. I believe in heaven and I believe I will "see" past loved ones there.

I have to admit I'm confused about the beginning of our universe. It's easier for me to believe in the Big Bang theory than it is for me to believe God waved his hand and....voila! This is where I get stuck. My belief in God cannot rectify or explain this dichotomy. I wonder if my belief system is more consistent with that of the Native American Indians.

The eminant 13th century theologian Thomas Aquinas whom many believe is the most important figure in laying the foundation of scientic enquiry in the West have a easy answer for you. He believes that God simply set in motion the chain of event that lead to our reality. He is the prime mover, and do not interfere in our lives. Aquinas believed that truth is known through reason (natural revelation) and faith (supernatural revelation). In the dark ages for Europe it was a beacon of light that inspired others to persue truth through reason. He was condemed for his belief in reason and was excommunicated posthumously. God as a prime mover might be interesting to you as that is not inconsistent with Big Bang, as science as of now have no means to speculate about the conditions before big bang and indeed if there is a 'before' (since time was supposed to have been created at the Big Bang).

watkins

Dear All,

If you feel compelled to contribute to this post, then you probably have no free will. If you can resist the temptation then....

Regards,
Bob

chango70

@unknownuser said:

Twisted definition Chango. Does it really have to be that complicated?
I can still understand it although it is in English and uses words I don't even use in my native language.
Let me try to simplify your definition - when I make a decision and think it is my own, it is just an option from multiple possibilities, which are limited? In your opinion, we just have an illusion of making a choice, in reality it is 'just' an option. It is what was a discussion in 'Matrix' between Neo and Architect, isn't it?

I haven't read about determinism, but from what you have written, it doesn't bother me if the options are limited or not. Still decision is mine. All right, it can be somehow evaluated. You could easily predict what my choice would be, in a certain discussion, based on what you already know about me. I doesn't matter for me and it doesn't mean your prediction would be correct. Am I reading your definition right?

Is it not a false path, trying to enclose our behavior in very rigid frames? I bet in reality they can be broken, although do not expect a prove from me.

Like in 'The Matrix' Love can escape all probabilities, in the way it was not expected by the architect.

I think, in the same way, we can just predict what is happening at a subatomic level, while the Love can make it work as it wants. Changing a water into a wine, in this light, it is just a simple trick.

'Free Will' kinda reminds of the manifold where locally each point might resemble Euclidian geometry (i.e. 90 degree right angles) however the global structure can vary. Like on the globe if you draw a line 90 degree from the equator north then they meet with 50 degrees. The local behaviour of conform to Euclidian geometry BUT globally it is false. 'Free Will', just like the manifold may appear to be locally true at the individual level, you may feel you have 'Free Will' however when you look at the bigger picture it simply isn't true.

Triangles_(spherical_geometry).jpg

remus

@unknownuser said:

I use The Word of God because it’s proved...

About as proven as the fact that their is a teapot orbiting neptune.

cornel

Chango wrote:
“…the price of consistence is DOGMA (Bible quoting by our very own Cornel is one fine example).”

No, Chango,
it’s not a “dogma”, it’s just a ‘habit’. To be dogmatic, I have to be characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles. I use The Word of God because it’s proved, trusted and unghangeable.
How are your words, Chango?! Tomorrow, with conventional large smile you are able to tell me: sorry Cornel, I changed my mind…!

Chango wrote:
“Jesus was the original non-conformist. A social revolutionary not willing to accept the status quo. This fact seem to be lost on the Christian Church who became the status quo. Cornel don't let some silly deciple of Jesus cloud your judgement about him. Ignore what they SAY look at what Jesus DID in his life. Its not hard to see he is closer to Che Guevara than the Pope.”

My questions: A) What was wrong in Jesus life?! B) Jesus must be closer to the Pope or vice-versa?!

…because I ‘said’before:
“. Regarding Karen Armstrong she's superficial and tendentious! Her religious Books and speeches are ‘perfumed’ and loaded with traditionalism, ethics, and ecumenism. It’s a masked socialism, widely used in the strategy of globalization.”

Chango wrote:
“ Mike, Karen Armstrong is a fantastic scholar on World religion. I read her seminal book on Islam and She is able to contextualize origins of the religion without expressly making judgement better than anyone else I've come across …”

Chango,
I read a lot, during many decenniums, about religion and philosophy. I recommend you to study (to compare...)complete works of at least an author such as Mircea Eliade (30 years as director of History of Religions department at the University of Chicago). Behold a partial list of his works:

The Quest: History and Meaning in Religion;
A History of Religious Ideas, vol. I, From the Stone Age to the Eleusinian Mysteries;
A History of Religious Ideas, vol. II, From Gautama Buddha to the Triumph of Christianity;
The History of Religious Ideas, vol. III, From Muhammad to the Age of the Reforms;
Encyclopedia of Religion (seventeen volumes)
Patterns in Comparative Religion;
The Sacred and the Profane: The Nature of Religion;
Myths, Dreams and Mysteries: the Encounter between Contemporary Faiths and Archaic Realities;
Images and Symbols: Studies in Religious Symbolism;
Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy;

Cornel

solo

Cornel wrote:

@unknownuser said:

I use The Word of God because it’s proved, trusted and unghangeable.

What on earth are you talking about? Since when is it proven? who proved it? where is this proof?

I mean if indeed it's been proven then there would be no need for faith, as you do not need faith if you have fact.

Trusted? sure you do not mean blind faith?

Unchanged? forgetting about the translation and selection issues of the past lets talk about the ever changing interpretations of the different denominations to suit their congregations.

cornel

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Regards,
Cornel

Mike Lucey

Cornel,

You continuously side step when asked to clarify your statements.
Case in point,

@unknownuser said:

I use The Word of God because it’s proved, trusted and unchangeable.

I would like to learn how The Word of God (in the Bible) is
proved. It goes with saying that something which its proven
is trusted and unchangeable. Just show me the BEEF, please
in simple language that even I will understand.

Mike

sorgesu

You know, this is going to go round and round and get nowhere. You aren't really expecting Cornel to have an epiphany and see how much sense you all make in your point of view and totally change his outlook?
By the same token, Cornel is NEVER going to win you guys over to his way of thinking/talking.
Everyone is firmly entereneched and really needless to provoke any further.

bellwells

@chango70 said:

@bellwells said:

OK, I should have read your previous posts before responding. For me, religion is a private and personal reverence for nature and the nature of things. As I said, I believe in God, but I'm not a fanatic about it. I believe in heaven and I believe I will "see" past loved ones there.

I have to admit I'm confused about the beginning of our universe. It's easier for me to believe in the Big Bang theory than it is for me to believe God waved his hand and....voila! This is where I get stuck. My belief in God cannot rectify or explain this dichotomy. I wonder if my belief system is more consistent with that of the Native American Indians.

The eminant 13th century theologian Thomas Aquinas whom many believe is the most important figure in laying the foundation of scientic enquiry in the West have a easy answer for you. He believes that God simply set in motion the chain of event that lead to our reality. He is the prime mover, and do not interfere in our lives. Aquinas believed that truth is known through reason (natural revelation) and faith (supernatural revelation). In the dark ages for Europe it was a beacon of light that inspired others to persue truth through reason. He was condemed for his belief in reason and was excommunicated posthumously. God as a prime mover might be interesting to you as that is not inconsistent with Big Bang, as science as of now have no means to speculate about the conditions before big bang and indeed if there is a 'before' (since time was supposed to have been created at the Big Bang).

In the words of Artie Johnson; verrrry interesting!

Mike Lucey

The BIG BANG! That's an interesting theory, but what MADE the
big bang? Neil Turok's put a theory forward in his presentation
that it was caused by two parallel universes touching!

Now the next question has to be, where did these come from? It
just goes on and on and ...(pun intended) Come to think of it,
I wonder if I really want to know or would be remotely capable
of understanding if confronted with the facts. Maybe they could
not even be explained to humans with our current levels of
comprehension!

Susan, what else can we do with Cornel? Looks like he is
here for the duration. We can always live in hope(s), his
and ours

solo

Please help a poor soul like me, and link me the proof, as Google does not have an answer.

My athiest days are numbered.

sorgesu

Well, I must admit, that whenever Corenl adds one of his god quotes to any topic, I just generally skip over it and go on to the next post. That is what I do with Cornel. I expect this not at all what Cornel wants. I think his agenda must be to add his input in the hopes that he "converts" even one person. I can't think of any other reason for his series of non-sequiters and non-contributing input. Unless he merely likes to "hear his own voice" so to speak. Cornel, I truly don't mean to pick a fight with you. I am sure you are sincere in your beliefs and you are here doing what you believe is right. But for me, you generally interfere with the flow of the discussion and the only way that I am able to cope with it, without getting angry, is to merely totally ignore that you posted. I wouldn't be surprised if that is usually the case with everyone else. But sometimes, I guess, you just get too irritating. Couldn't you just drop it and keep it to yourself? Believe whatever you like but don't force it on the rest of us. ... and contribute in some meaningful way to a conversation that is on topic?

cornel

Susan,
Please, re-read my posts! They were on the topic.

My points were (a concise extract):

Whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved, not free.
God knows everything about us. He knows what is the best way to obtain the real freedom.
Humans have relative truth. We have to know the absolute truth, and that Truth will set us free.
I asked if “the free will” is part of “the soul” or of “the spirit”, but no answer…
I presented that the soul is different than the spirit, and animals have no spirit.
I mentioned that atheists cannot explain part of “the soul” and “the entire spirit” .
The nonspiritual person is not able to understand God's works because they are spiritually discerned."
Our will is the result of how we are “wired”, spiritual or nonspiritual.
Be careful, there are philosophers and speculant scientists! See to them that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy!
Physical processes are based on spirituals, not vice-versa! The ‘spiritual world’ determines the ‘material world’.
Do not nullify the Word of God for the sake of your tradition!
Miscellaneous, based on others questions.

Cornel

cornel

Pete wrote:
"What on earth are you talking about? Since when is it proven? who proved it? where is this proof?"

There were written tons of serious and laborious books demonstrating that the Bible is indeed the Word of Living God. Besides that, on Internet, using search machine, is very easy to find titles, articles, comments, etc.
Initially, I started from the premise that all of you are already documented about those elementary things. I was wrong, because majority of you had no time and interest for that.

On the other side, The Scripture is autoexplicative, and you can find the True only by reading and re-reading The Word of God. Who has no a hard copy of it, can find The Bible online.
There aren’t excuses from anybody that he/she had no access to enough information.

Considering above ‘points’, I will not be involved in all ABCs!

boofredlay

Pete, thanks for answering my question a few pages back. I've been playing daddy all weekend

Even though this topic seems to be going round and round it is very interesting indeed. Even if it has strayed a bit from the main topic of Free Will.

I wanted to interject a reading suggestion here if I may. An excellent read and very easy to follow.
"The Language of God" by Francis Collins, former head of the Human Genome Project.
Here is what the back cover of the book says:

@unknownuser said:

 Dr. Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, is one of the world's leading scientists.  He works at the cutting edge of the study of DNA, the code of life.  Yet he is also a man of unshakable faith in God and scripture.
 Dr. Collins believes that faith in God and faith in science can coexist within a person and be harmonious.  In *The Language of God* he makes his case for God and for science.  He has heard every argument against faith from scientists, and he can refute them.  he has also heard the needless rejection of scientific truths by some people of faith, and he can counter them too.  He explains his own journey from atheism to faith, and then takes readers for a stunning tour of modern science to show that physics, chemistry and biology can all fit together with belief in God and the Bible.  The Language of God is essential reading for anyone who wonders about the deepest questions of faith:  Why are we here?  How did we get here?  What does life mean?