Do humans have a free will?
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Now, now Pete ..... it must be catching
Thats a lot of knowledge there Cornel. I'd love to have a couple
of languages, Spanish and maybe French. Oh! I am reasonably
proficient in Gaelic. What languages do you actually speak? -
@unknownuser said:
Stinkie,
You didnāt follow my advice to see Bible contexts of terms such ānonspiritual manā or āa beastly manāā¦! Using a āsearch machineā or a āconcordanceā, you can find many instances of them and you will be elucidated!Am I to take it that the Bible defines 'beastly' in another way than Webster's does, and if so, how precisely?
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@bellwells said:
Pete, faith is not belief without knowledge, it is belief without proof. Subtle but critical distinction.
Ron, any knowledge thats worth two cents can be PROVED! Otherwise its speculation at best, hocus pocus at worst. Do you really think people should lay down their life for speculation? Where is the morality of that? There is this wonderful talk by Dan Dennett on Dangerious Memes http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html which applies to all religions and ideologies. Religion is like a virus or parasite. To use a Deleuzian term, they have the same 'engineering diagram'.
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Susan,
Iām w/ SU forum since SU v.3 and I was involved inclusive in ātehnicalsā, (especialy
in former forum), but now, there are a lot of specialists, dedicated and prompt, willing to share their experience. My time is very limited (projects, consulting, library, grand children, etc.)Stinkie,
To be āprecisellyā, start w/ those:
Romans 7:5, 7:18-25, 8:3, 8:20, 13:4,
1 Corinthians 2:14, 15:44-46; 2 Corinthians 10:2-3, 11:8
Galatians 3:3, 5:13-17, 5:24, 6:8
Colossians 2:13, etc.
Itās easy to use āBible onlineā because you can switch to different Bible versions (or diff. languages), or change passages. Very helpful also is the keyword search machineā¦Cornel
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Mike & Susan,
Iām giving you only my partial āskeletonā... I have no time for details or stories.
(I donāt know how curious are you...and, besides that, Iām an old ācollectionistā...)I lived in different kind of countries (Popular/Republic, Socialist/Communist, Capitalist/Imperialist) and continents.
I know several languages, English is the fifth.I have two masters (Architecture and Urban Planning), several related majors (Interior Design/Decorations, Interior Architect & Industrial Design) plus two majors in Fine Arts (Picture & Sculpture). I worked also, temporary, or part time in paralel w/ main activity, in many other total different āfieldsā.
Programs:
CAD: Iām expert in Cadvance, DataCad, Architectural Desktop, proficient in Vectorworks, Archicad, familiar w/ Revit, Allplan, Solidworks, Rhino, etc.
Modeling/Rendering: SketchUp, 3D Studio Max, Accurender, Artlantis , Piranesi., etc
Photo editind & painting: Graphic Suites of Adobe and Corel, Paint 3D, etc
Miscellaneous: tens of other important programs and utilities.Sports: Soccer, Martial Arts, Acrobatics, Alpinism, Deltaplane etc.
Is this list enough for this āsesionā?
"Just curious!" (my turn..)Cornel
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Dan Dennett on Dangerious Memes was a good listen, thanks for
the link. I'd forgotten about TED, some really great talks there and
well worth staying up to date with what's going on
Also watched Al Seckel: Your brain is badly wired -- enjoy it!
He makes some good points on how its not possible for many people
to 'see' what are looking at. Crazy Nuts is a good case in point. -
I thought this topic doesn't have to relate again to religion, but as it has been mentioned already few times, I want to share with you some of my thoughts.
@solo said:
I evaluate myself constantly and try live a life of virtue, and not for a reward of everlasting life in heaven.
This a very common misinterpretation of the Christianity. There is NOTHING a Christian can do get to heaven. It works in an opposite way. I will get to heaven because I believe in love and also 'I evaluate myself constantly and try live a life of virtue' not in order to get there but from pure thankfulness I have discovered a path of love. We are not that different, Pete.
@solo said:
I do not believe Christianity/religion has a copyright on morals, actually based on what I have seen religion is responsible for more hatred and death, not forgetting deceit, paedophilia, martyrdom and greed to be even closely associated with good morals and honest values.
I do not believe Christianity/religion has a copyright on morals, neither. You are right. When I think of all crusades, all fights amongst Italian families to put their member as a pope I see how far can idea of a Kingdom can be warped, lost and used for completely different purposes.
@solo said:
Atheists have nothing to fall back on. We are on our own and it is necessary for us to find a moral life. We have to be objective and rational. Mysticism won't work and we know it. Atheists have something no religious person can enjoy and that is the certainty that our moral decisions are based upon a knowledge founded in reality and not faith in some unprovable, murky mystic awareness. Faith is belief without knowledge.
Mysticism it is a window through you can see what is outside. It doesn't mean that a mystic is someone irrational and non-objective. Such a person has just deeper knowledge of what you don't want or don't care to accept as a truth.
Pure Christianity wouldn't deprive you of knowledge founded in reality. It would just enhance your scope of awareness. It is an invitation to a wedding party organized by someone who has brought all our reality to an existence. Many say - I do not care. I have a work to do. I have to visit my relatives. Let other go. I won't.
@chango70 said:
There is this wonderful talk by Dan Dennett on Dangerious Memes http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html which applies to all religions and ideologies. Religion is like a virus or parasite.
Chango, thank you for the link. It was really inspiring to listen to this man. Your problem is that you just hear what you want to hear, not what he said.
He was relating to ideas that are being misused or abused. This the reason why they can be dangerous and work like parasites. Listen to it once again. He is not talking about religions in general, but those misinterpretations that are toxic.
Tomasz
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@unknownuser said:
āFor we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.ā
It is not much related to the topic of the thread, but I like this part very much, as it describes what I have mentioned in other thread. There will be no 'half truths', there will be no excuse. We will see everything as is, not as we imagine it is. Mystic can have a better insight into this future state, but it doesn't have to be full. It will be still partial.
As I have written, and will write again: Love will never do an attempt to brake your will. One can just open a door and let her flow. She will not come uninvited. It just invites You to take part in her flow.
@unknownuser said:
What is the force that binds the stars
I wore this mask to hide my scars
What is the power that pulls the tide
I never could find a place to hideWhat moves the Earth around the sun
What could I do but run and run and run
Afraid to love, afraid to fail
A mast without a sailThe moon's a fingernail and slowly sinking
Another day begins and now I'm thinking
That this indifference was my invention
When everything I did sought your attentionYou were my compass star
You were my measure
You were a pirate's map
A buried treasureIf this was all correct
The last thing I'd expect
The prosecution rests
It's time that I confess: I must have loved you -
Pete,
that passage:
"but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears."
ā¦sounds interesting, bat the meaning is different..; being out of context, appears to be alterated!Pretinse text of 1 Corinthians 13:9-11 is (in one Bible version):
āFor we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.āMore precisely, which is in partwill be done away.
Besides that, "perfection" isn't identical w/ "perfect"...!Cornel
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Ah, Sting. If there was ever a mystic who could look into the future, it's him. I'm deeply sorry, but I find it progressivily harder to take some of the, err, contributions to this thread seriously. I cannot be the only one.
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@unknownuser said:
Ah, Sting. If there was ever a mystic who could look into the future, it's him. I'm deeply sorry, but I find it progressivily harder to take some of the, err, contributions to this thread seriously. I cannot be the only one.
Thanks for your, err, generous contribution Stinkie.
This was not a direct reference to the topic, as I have written. -
You're welcome. Obviously I wasn't referring to the 'on topicness' of your remark. I was commenting on the vagueness of it. Mystics? Future state? Seeing things as they are, rather than like we imagine they are?
Seriously, why do we still bother, at this day and age, with these kind of concepts? I say we finally do away with all metaphysical horsecr*p and start, yup, seeing things as they are.
Mystics! shakes head in disbelief
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@unknownuser said:
Seriously, why do we still bother, at this day and age, with these kind of concepts? I say we finally do away with all metaphysical horsecr*p and start, yup, seeing things as they are.
Thanks Stinkie. Now you are talking. I was just referring to Pete's post where he mentioned first time mysticism and expressed same as your attitude.
Why? Answer is quite simple. We are spiritual beings. Leaving this area undeveloped while pushing all industrial and scientific progress forward will result in degrading us to a role of a biological machine, piece of meat. This is something we should not allow. Do you see it different? I am not talking about Christianity only, but all attempts made to keep our spirits their well deserved place in this age of a machine.
Tomasz
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Again somewhat off topic but never the less related! I viewed
a few more talks on TED and can highly recommending listening
to Karen Armstrong, Neil Yurok and Dave Eggers, save Dave till
last as he is very funny. They are a far better watch than a
lot of the stuff on TV. -
@mike lucey said:
Again somewhat off topic but never the less related! I viewed
a few more talks on TED and can highly recommending listening
to Karen Armstrong, Neil Yurok and Dave Eggers, save Dave till
last as he is very funny. They are a far better watch than a
lot of the stuff on TV.Yes it's an infatigable source of inspiration. I was wondering Mike if you are aware of any other sites like TED?
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@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
Seriously, why do we still bother, at this day and age, with these kind of concepts? I say we finally do away with all metaphysical horsecr*p and start, yup, seeing things as they are.
Thanks Stinkie. Now you are talking. I was just referring to Pete's post where he mentioned first time mysticism and expressed same as your attitude.
Why? Answer is quite simple. We are spiritual beings. Leaving this area undeveloped while pushing all industrial and scientific progress forward will result in degrading us to a role of a biological machine, piece of meat. This is something we should not allow. Do you see it different? I am not talking about Christianity only, but all attempts made to keep our spirits their well deserved place in this age of a machine.
Tomasz
Why do you think being a biological machine or a piece of meat is 'degrading' in the first place? If you believe your self to be better (by possessing a 'spirit') and later learn that your judgement are based on false premises do you A. readjust your view based on new found evidence? or B cling to old belief for your dear life and called new evidence 'degrading'. It is degrading to the human intellect to choose the later!
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No, I dont know or another source like TED. Must check though.
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Cornel
Explain to me how religious people such as your good self exercise their 'free will'? And in what way would Bible quoting be more 'free' than not believing in a supreme deity?
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Rousing from "TED"...
(Take one free, to receive other two versions, gratis!) - Colossians 2:8:
āSee to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this worldā¦ā
āTake heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the worldā¦ā
āSee that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the worldā¦
Itās wasting time to listen a philosopher and a speculant scientist like Dan Dennett!
ā¦A lot of noiseā¦, for nothing! Perhaps some atheists can aford to have āfanā w/ a āfanfaronadeā.
By his intelligence, D.D. magnetizes immediate a lot of people.
Poor D.D.! He tries to explain spiritual āthingsā, based on physical processes ā¦
Vice-versa is logic and simple...
To be intelligent, doesnāt mean to be wise!!Cornel
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Why would anyone come to the conclusion that Cornel is a good
Christian? I have seen no evidence of this in all the time that
he has been here!I will admit that he is somewhat polite (to a certain extent)
but I see no Christian Spirit in the way he just keeps posting
Bible quotes time after time. He is not even prepared to tolerate
another person's beliefs let alone agree that they have a right
to have their own opinions / free will.I suppose he may think he lives by the Golden Rule,'Do unto others
as you would wish them to do unto you' or words to that effect.
In his case this would mean that he would wish everyone to be of
the same religious beliefs as he. This would mean that a very
large percentage of the human race could never be acceptable!I think he should closely examine the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Let him without sin cast the fist stone! Acceptance and Tolerance
are true Christian values NOT robotically quoting the Bible.He should try listening to Karen Armstrong (on TED) closely as it
might open his eyes about how a true Christian might go about things!
The best way to bring people to your beliefs is by example NOT
pushing them down their throats...... robotically
He seems to be a highly intelligent man but alas I'm afraid he
is not using his intelligence.Mike
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