Do humans have a free will?
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I thought this topic doesn't have to relate again to religion, but as it has been mentioned already few times, I want to share with you some of my thoughts.
@solo said:
I evaluate myself constantly and try live a life of virtue, and not for a reward of everlasting life in heaven.
This a very common misinterpretation of the Christianity. There is NOTHING a Christian can do get to heaven. It works in an opposite way. I will get to heaven because I believe in love and also 'I evaluate myself constantly and try live a life of virtue' not in order to get there but from pure thankfulness I have discovered a path of love. We are not that different, Pete.
@solo said:
I do not believe Christianity/religion has a copyright on morals, actually based on what I have seen religion is responsible for more hatred and death, not forgetting deceit, paedophilia, martyrdom and greed to be even closely associated with good morals and honest values.
I do not believe Christianity/religion has a copyright on morals, neither. You are right. When I think of all crusades, all fights amongst Italian families to put their member as a pope I see how far can idea of a Kingdom can be warped, lost and used for completely different purposes.
@solo said:
Atheists have nothing to fall back on. We are on our own and it is necessary for us to find a moral life. We have to be objective and rational. Mysticism won't work and we know it. Atheists have something no religious person can enjoy and that is the certainty that our moral decisions are based upon a knowledge founded in reality and not faith in some unprovable, murky mystic awareness. Faith is belief without knowledge.
Mysticism it is a window through you can see what is outside. It doesn't mean that a mystic is someone irrational and non-objective. Such a person has just deeper knowledge of what you don't want or don't care to accept as a truth.
Pure Christianity wouldn't deprive you of knowledge founded in reality. It would just enhance your scope of awareness. It is an invitation to a wedding party organized by someone who has brought all our reality to an existence. Many say - I do not care. I have a work to do. I have to visit my relatives. Let other go. I won't.
@chango70 said:
There is this wonderful talk by Dan Dennett on Dangerious Memes http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_dennett_on_dangerous_memes.html which applies to all religions and ideologies. Religion is like a virus or parasite.
Chango, thank you for the link. It was really inspiring to listen to this man. Your problem is that you just hear what you want to hear, not what he said.
He was relating to ideas that are being misused or abused. This the reason why they can be dangerous and work like parasites. Listen to it once again. He is not talking about religions in general, but those misinterpretations that are toxic.
Tomasz
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@unknownuser said:
“For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.”
It is not much related to the topic of the thread, but I like this part very much, as it describes what I have mentioned in other thread. There will be no 'half truths', there will be no excuse. We will see everything as is, not as we imagine it is. Mystic can have a better insight into this future state, but it doesn't have to be full. It will be still partial.
As I have written, and will write again: Love will never do an attempt to brake your will. One can just open a door and let her flow. She will not come uninvited. It just invites You to take part in her flow.
@unknownuser said:
What is the force that binds the stars
I wore this mask to hide my scars
What is the power that pulls the tide
I never could find a place to hideWhat moves the Earth around the sun
What could I do but run and run and run
Afraid to love, afraid to fail
A mast without a sailThe moon's a fingernail and slowly sinking
Another day begins and now I'm thinking
That this indifference was my invention
When everything I did sought your attentionYou were my compass star
You were my measure
You were a pirate's map
A buried treasureIf this was all correct
The last thing I'd expect
The prosecution rests
It's time that I confess: I must have loved you -
Pete,
that passage:
"but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears."
…sounds interesting, bat the meaning is different..; being out of context, appears to be alterated!Pretinse text of 1 Corinthians 13:9-11 is (in one Bible version):
“For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.”More precisely, which is in partwill be done away.
Besides that, "perfection" isn't identical w/ "perfect"...!Cornel
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Ah, Sting. If there was ever a mystic who could look into the future, it's him. I'm deeply sorry, but I find it progressivily harder to take some of the, err, contributions to this thread seriously. I cannot be the only one.
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@unknownuser said:
Ah, Sting. If there was ever a mystic who could look into the future, it's him. I'm deeply sorry, but I find it progressivily harder to take some of the, err, contributions to this thread seriously. I cannot be the only one.
Thanks for your, err, generous contribution Stinkie.
This was not a direct reference to the topic, as I have written. -
You're welcome. Obviously I wasn't referring to the 'on topicness' of your remark. I was commenting on the vagueness of it. Mystics? Future state? Seeing things as they are, rather than like we imagine they are?
Seriously, why do we still bother, at this day and age, with these kind of concepts? I say we finally do away with all metaphysical horsecr*p and start, yup, seeing things as they are.
Mystics! shakes head in disbelief
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@unknownuser said:
Seriously, why do we still bother, at this day and age, with these kind of concepts? I say we finally do away with all metaphysical horsecr*p and start, yup, seeing things as they are.
Thanks Stinkie. Now you are talking. I was just referring to Pete's post where he mentioned first time mysticism and expressed same as your attitude.
Why? Answer is quite simple. We are spiritual beings. Leaving this area undeveloped while pushing all industrial and scientific progress forward will result in degrading us to a role of a biological machine, piece of meat. This is something we should not allow. Do you see it different? I am not talking about Christianity only, but all attempts made to keep our spirits their well deserved place in this age of a machine.
Tomasz
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Again somewhat off topic but never the less related! I viewed
a few more talks on TED and can highly recommending listening
to Karen Armstrong, Neil Yurok and Dave Eggers, save Dave till
last as he is very funny. They are a far better watch than a
lot of the stuff on TV. -
@mike lucey said:
Again somewhat off topic but never the less related! I viewed
a few more talks on TED and can highly recommending listening
to Karen Armstrong, Neil Yurok and Dave Eggers, save Dave till
last as he is very funny. They are a far better watch than a
lot of the stuff on TV.Yes it's an infatigable source of inspiration. I was wondering Mike if you are aware of any other sites like TED?
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@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
Seriously, why do we still bother, at this day and age, with these kind of concepts? I say we finally do away with all metaphysical horsecr*p and start, yup, seeing things as they are.
Thanks Stinkie. Now you are talking. I was just referring to Pete's post where he mentioned first time mysticism and expressed same as your attitude.
Why? Answer is quite simple. We are spiritual beings. Leaving this area undeveloped while pushing all industrial and scientific progress forward will result in degrading us to a role of a biological machine, piece of meat. This is something we should not allow. Do you see it different? I am not talking about Christianity only, but all attempts made to keep our spirits their well deserved place in this age of a machine.
Tomasz
Why do you think being a biological machine or a piece of meat is 'degrading' in the first place? If you believe your self to be better (by possessing a 'spirit') and later learn that your judgement are based on false premises do you A. readjust your view based on new found evidence? or B cling to old belief for your dear life and called new evidence 'degrading'. It is degrading to the human intellect to choose the later!
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No, I dont know or another source like TED. Must check though.
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Cornel
Explain to me how religious people such as your good self exercise their 'free will'? And in what way would Bible quoting be more 'free' than not believing in a supreme deity?
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Rousing from "TED"...
(Take one free, to receive other two versions, gratis!) - Colossians 2:8:
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world…”
“Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world…”
“See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world…
It’s wasting time to listen a philosopher and a speculant scientist like Dan Dennett!
…A lot of noise…, for nothing! Perhaps some atheists can aford to have ‘fan’ w/ a ‘fanfaronade’.
By his intelligence, D.D. magnetizes immediate a lot of people.
Poor D.D.! He tries to explain spiritual ‘things’, based on physical processes …
Vice-versa is logic and simple...
To be intelligent, doesn’t mean to be wise!!Cornel
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Why would anyone come to the conclusion that Cornel is a good
Christian? I have seen no evidence of this in all the time that
he has been here!I will admit that he is somewhat polite (to a certain extent)
but I see no Christian Spirit in the way he just keeps posting
Bible quotes time after time. He is not even prepared to tolerate
another person's beliefs let alone agree that they have a right
to have their own opinions / free will.I suppose he may think he lives by the Golden Rule,'Do unto others
as you would wish them to do unto you' or words to that effect.
In his case this would mean that he would wish everyone to be of
the same religious beliefs as he. This would mean that a very
large percentage of the human race could never be acceptable!I think he should closely examine the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Let him without sin cast the fist stone! Acceptance and Tolerance
are true Christian values NOT robotically quoting the Bible.He should try listening to Karen Armstrong (on TED) closely as it
might open his eyes about how a true Christian might go about things!
The best way to bring people to your beliefs is by example NOT
pushing them down their throats...... robotically
He seems to be a highly intelligent man but alas I'm afraid he
is not using his intelligence.Mike
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Chango & Mike,
- At first, the ‘spiritual world’ determines the ‘material world’.
Look to life of Jesus Christ! Continuously, spirituals were first, and materials were resulted…
There isn’t a true liberty, without a spiritual freedom going before it!
A person which knows ABOUT God isn’t a spiritual one. To be spiritual a person must know God, must be intimate with God, must communicate with God!
- Regarding Karen Armstrong she's superficial and tendentious! Her religious Books and speeches are ‘perfumed’ and loaded with traditionalism, ethics, and ecumenism. It’s a masked socialism, widely used in the strategy of globalization.
Do you know Jesus Christ position about traditionalism?!
Voila an example:
“… Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition..” (Matthew 15:6).
(See also other locations such as: Matthew 15:2-3; Mark 7:5, 7:8-9; Galatians 1:14; Colossians 2:8.)Cornel
- At first, the ‘spiritual world’ determines the ‘material world’.
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@unknownuser said:
Chango & Mike,
- At first, the ‘spiritual world’ determines the ‘material world’.
Look to life of Jesus Christ! Continuously, spirituals were first, and materials were resulted…
There isn’t a true liberty, without a spiritual freedom going before it!
A person which knows ABOUT God isn’t a spiritual one. To be spiritual a person must know God, must be intimate with God, must communicate with God!
- Regarding Karen Armstrong she's superficial and tendentious! Her religious Books and speeches are ‘perfumed’ and loaded with traditionalism, ethics, and ecumenism. It’s a masked socialism, widely used in the strategy of globalization.
Do you know Jesus Christ position about traditionalism?!
Voila an example:
“… Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition..” (Matthew 15:6).
(See also other locations such as: Matthew 15:2-3; Mark 7:5, 7:8-9; Galatians 1:14; Colossians 2:8.)Cornel
Jesus was the original non-conformist. A social revolutionary not willing to accept the status quo. This fact seem to be lost on the Christian Church who became the status quo. Cornel don't let some silly deciple of Jesus cloud your judgement about him. Ignore what they SAY look at what Jesus DID in his life. Its not hard to see he is closer to Che Guevara than the Pope.
- At first, the ‘spiritual world’ determines the ‘material world’.
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a collection of thoughts:
I believe that our free will is, as chango said, limited. that an ultimate free will is not possible. but it is definitely free enough for me. in fact sometimes it is almost to free; when I have difficulties to decide something, it would be nice to be more dependant, to just know what to do (to not have do decide freely).
Cornel, you understand the bible to be the word of god and base all your argument solely on what this document states. I would be careful with that. there was a moment in my life, when I realised, that books are only written by men, by people like you and me and therefore not always tell the truth (a similar situation of 'growing up' is, when you find out, that your parents are not flawless beings that are invincilbe and can always protect you). the fact that I myself could write a book is proof to me, that taking the truth in a book for granted and not question to a certain extend, is dangerous and careless.
with the example of the bible: it was written many hundrets of years ago and may have been changed by people who abused the "word of god" for their selfish course. the people, who wrote down the word of god where only human, therefore may have altered the original meaning of His word, influenced by their own experiences and believes. so the essence may have survived in the bible, the initial thought.
but I believe, you simply can't use quotations out of such a book to 'proof' something, like a scientist uses readouts of his machines to proof something (I accept the scientists results because repeated tests giving the same results make it very likely to be correct - you can't have such certainty with religious/philosophical texts).chango, I think comparing religion with a virus is a bit too easy. after all we find many viral behavours in human actions. even 'Agent Smith's' idea (Matrix) is true to a certain extend, that humans behave like a virus. at the moment, humans are populating far too fast for their host (earth). and already first attempts of the virus "mankind" to infest other planets were made.
a religion is defined by the fact that more than one person believes in it. therefore each religion's goal is to reach as many people as possible. the behavoural pattern may be viral (spread as much as possible). but the initiative behind it is a positive one most of the time.
The image just sprang to my mind, where scientists use a viral organism, equip it with certain positive attributes (like fighting cancer cells) and inject it into a human body - 'to spread the word'... -
ah, I see. didn't realise that earlier.
by the way: "Justice" could be the next explosive topic here. but not for the next 10 pages...
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I realise that, thats why I included other values like Justice, Democracy, Communism etc. In reality I am much more neutral to the debate. I like the idea of NOMA (Nonoverlapping Magisteria) advocated by Stephen Jay Gould and in real life I consider my self an Agnostic. However due to the extremity of some of the comments coming from the religious camp I feel obliged to play the 'devil's advocate' as it where and stir things up a little.
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@plot-paris said:
ah, I see. didn't realise that earlier.
by the way: "Justice" could be the next explosive topic here. but not for the next 10 pages...
I feel I need to clarify my position on religion in order not to engender further misunderstanding.
Religion to me is a self-consistent meaning system that generates its own 'equilibrium' through endogenous set of beliefs. Humans are 'meaning-machines' because our mind is trained through language to understand the world through often linear explainations or 'meanings'. The world we live in is however a 'non-linear and dynamic complex system' that produces emergent phenomena which linear causality cannont explain fully. It is actually only in the last century that science started to engage with nonlinear dynamic systems in any meaningful manner. Witness the rise of Complexity theory, System Theory, Emergence, Chaos Theory, Cybernetics, Cellular Automata, Ecology to name a few. We are beginning to understand how complex entities such consciousness might arise from simple physical constructs such as neurons through structural organization and inter-relation of the neural network. It is true that science actually explains very little of the things that give people meaning in life, however it is heading in that direction!
Religions have the benefit of giving people a consistent set of 'meanings' through which enable them to 'interpret' the world around them or act in a consistent manner. However, the price of consistence is DOGMA (Bible quoting by our very own Cornel is one fine example). It is dogma, and the power structure that arise from dogma that get in the ways of different (I.E. Alternatives Religious or Mystical Revelations) and better (more evidence based, i.e. science) systems of explaining the world and they do so often violently.
As such, I have little or no problems with religious belief or religious people. It is religious dogma and its varioius articulations that gets on my nerves.
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