Religion anyone?
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RickW, I like your way in explaining things in images - helps a lot to understand a point (by the way, I think this is exactly how the bible is meant - therefore quoting only one sentence out of a story that is supposed to transport an image may be misleading).
the story with the man and the wet street is a great example for how the system of science works. the man found a clue with the wet street and unfortunately went to the wrong conclusion. if he had done a deeper research however and had increased his knowledge of the matter, he may have come to the right conclusion in the end. most important is, that he found evidence to support his theory (even if it was the wrong one).
with solo's story we have the two possibilities that either the disability of the man in the wheelchair was psychosomatic and his "healing" was simply the breach of a psychological barrier, or it was indeed a miracle healing, done by a divine entity.
scientists would instantly jump to the first conclusion (therefore stating that religion does work - i helped the man in the wheelchair break his mind blockade after all).
religious people however go for the second conclusion, without a wet street at all (reference to he first story
). that means that their theory may be right or may be true - but they don't have any evidence. they have to believe that their idea is right - their only support is "faith"this is, in my opinion, the one huge difference between religion/philosophy and science.
@modelhead. thanks for the links. didn't have time to read the pdf yet. but it sounds very interesting.
PS: isn't religion/phylosophy something fantastic? this thread has been going on for 11 pages now and everyone is still attending it with so much energy and passion. everyone tries to konvince the other one that his onw point of view is right and worth believing in. that is a proper discussion!
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@alan fraser said:
The way it is traditionally modelled is that every atom of matter in the universe is exerting a gravitational pull (by whatever means) on every other atom. This is an inferencing system that puts SU to shame.
I LOVE this analogy!!! -
Certainly not less important is the Holy Spirit...!
I believe in the personality and divinity of the Holy Spirit(John 14:16-17; Romans 8:26-27; Ephesians 4:30). He is one person of the Trinity (Mattew 28:18). He had a role in the creation(Genesis 1:2; Job 33:4), and has a role in peopleās lives (John 16:8-17). He convicts the world of its sin; He regenerates and sanctifies (Titus 3:5); He dwells in all true believers (Romans 8:9). He never abandons the Church or even the weakest of all believers; He is permanently present to testify about Jesus Christ(John 14:17).
(Without quotations!
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Cornel -
Jakob,
Re. your P.S.: ā isn't religion/phylosophy something fantastic? this thread has been going on for 11 pages now and everyone is still attending it with so much energy and passion. everyone tries to konvince the other one that his own point of view is right and worth believing inā¦āI know many āinterestingā philosophies, but I have no such ācourageā to invent a god. Itās too dangerous and very hazardous ā¦! Because of that, I adopt Biblical description of the ātrue Godā. Behold my succint conclusion:
I believe in the only true God (John 17:3) revealed in the Scriptures as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mattew 28:19). I believe in the oneness (Deut. 6:4), the trinity (Mattew 3:16-17) and the trinity unified as one God (Mattew 28:19). God is a spirit (John 4:24), infinite and perfect in all His attributes (Psalms 139:1-12), the One that created all things(Rev. 4:11), and keeps all things through the power of His Word (Hebrews 1:3). In Him we live, we move and have our being (Acts 17:28). He is the source, the sustainment and the finality of all things(Romans 11:36).
Cornel
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you see? that's why I am so happy with my personal religion - I can find aspects of christian religion in it and can (at least try) to explain it for myself:
the Holy Spirit is exactly what I describe the collective spirit, the sum of all energy fields that surround every being. therefore he is in all of us (because we are a part of him, obviously). or you could put it this way: the Holy Spirit consists of us!
if there is an entity like God, I would describe it as a collective intelligence. I am not sure yet how it works precisely. but it has something to do with ideas that are shared by many beings that rise to a collective tune within the collective spirit (and I am not thinking of abstract ideas, but rather of general ideas of what the world needs). I know, still a bit vague, but it could go into the direction being an influence to evolution, which would somehow make it easier to understand some of the wonders that live on our planet.
so I would not define God as a intelligence like us humans that comes up with rules, but as a collective idea of what is good and what is not.
so if you look at how we treat our planet and exploit resources at the moment, one could say, that too many people do not listen to God anymore (listen to the need of our world)well, and the third guy of the trinity - Jesus: I am absolutely sure, that he was a real person some two thousand years ago. surely he was an extraordinary man, who had a very deep connection to the spirits around him. George Lucas would say - he had a great knowledge of the living force -.
and to communicate what he believed to other people, he used analogies, images (like the bible does). he was so convincing, that he even encouraged people to heal themselves, to believe in themselves (if we look at loads of medical research studies with placebos, we see that our self healing powers are enormous; we only need someone to give us confidence).
and if you believe mel gibsons "passion of the christ" and the few flashbacks to his earlier life, we see, that he was a really cool guy.sorry, went on a bit longer than inteded. should probably start a new thread to convert you to my believe
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...or he was just a bloke a couple of thousand years ago who had some pretty good ideas.
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Here is an interesting story i heard on NPR.
Katharine Jefferts Schori is the 26th Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, and the first woman to hold the post. She also is a trained scientist with a degree in marine biology from Stanford and a doctorate degree in oceanography at Oregon State University.
Very interesting combination, she describes that science gives you the how and faith gives you the why.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95429960
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Jacob,
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I disagree w/ you re. Holy Spirit. He isn't in all of us, He isn't "a collective spirit", etc.
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Seeing your āsentenceā: āā¦ the third guy of the trinity - Jesus: I am absolutely sure, that he was a real person some two thousand years ago. surely he was an extraordinary man, who had a very deep connection to the spirits around him.ā
ā¦I decided to show you my āpositionā:
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God the Son, both true God and man (John 5:20; 1 Timothy 2:5). I believe that Christ exists from eternity. He is not a creation, but the Creator, existing before anything was created (John 1:1-3). There was no time at which He did not exist (John 8:58, 24, 28). He is the eternal Son of God.
I believe that He is the promised One through the prophecies of the Old Testament, the One symbolized through the sacrifices, the rituals and ceremonies of the Old Testament.
I believe in His birth from the virgin Mary, through the power of the Holy Spirit. He had a body in the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), but was without sin (1 Peter 2:22). He was perfect in all ways, holy, without blame, without blemish, separated from sinners (Hebrews 7:26).
I believe that He offered Himself as an atoning sacrifice for our sins (Hebrews 9:14; Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 4:10). The effectiveness and sufficiency of His blood is the essence of the Gospel of grace. He came to erase sin through His sacrifice (Hebrews 7:25-27; 9:26).
I believe in the literal, physical resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:4; Acts 2:24-32). His resurrection is the assurance and guarantee of our own resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:16-23). I believe that Jesus Christ ascended to heaven in the full glory He possessed before His embodiment. His ascension was made in a transformed, glorified body in which He is now standing at the right hand of God, mediating for us (Acts 1:9; 7:56; Hebrews 8:6).
I believe that Jesus Christ will rapture His church to heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-52; John 14:1-3).
I believe that His second coming on earth is literal, visible and personal, in the same way He ascended (Acts 1:12; Revelation 1:7; Mattew 24:30). He will come as King of kings and Lord of lords, and will establish a kingdom on earth for 1000 years, time during which Satan will be bound (Revelations 19:11, 20:6; Zachariah 14:1-9).I believe that at the end of those 1000 years Jesus Christ will destroy any evil resistance, He will destroy the current creation and will create a new heaven and a new earth where He will reign together with His chosen ones (Revelations 21:5, 22:3-5; 1 Corinthians 15:24-26).
Cornel
P.S.:..."Sorry, went on a bit longer than inteded"..." -
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Modelhead,
I presented 3 Person God (as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit), w/ warious Bible links, to prove that there arenāt any inadvertencies regarding Them!
... Plus you can see Their cumulate roles on Creation!Cornel
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RickW,
Regarding my example of the faith healing:
I was not trying to redicule you at all, I wanted to show that a situation like I explained would be a no-brainer for a 'believer' they would emediately say it's God's healing power and the faith of the recipient. However a fact based non believer would make other conclusions, like it being a scam (like so many), mind over matter as explained by Plot-paris, hypnosis, etc, and would need some serious convincing before accepting it being a supernatural result.
Nomeradona touched on something, what does Rick W stand for?, Rick warren?
(joke) -
@solo said:
RickW,
Regarding my example of the faith healing:
I was not trying to redicule you at all, I wanted to show that a situation like I explained would be a no-brainer for a 'believer' they would emediately say it's God's healing power and the faith of the recipient. However a fact based non believer would make other conclusions, like it being a scam (like so many), mind over matter as explained by Plot-paris, hypnosis, etc, and would need some serious convincing before accepting it being a supernatural result.
Nomeradona touched on something, what does Rick W stand for?, Rick warren?
(joke)I didn't really think you were - but just exploring the possibilities (however remote) for the sake of illustration. As it turns out, I suspected (but didn't know for sure) that the actual case was what you just explained; thus, I didn't (fully) understand your point - which was one of the possibilities.
Though I share a first name and last initial with the well-known pastor, we are definitely two different people -
he writes "inspirational" books , I write ruby plugins for SketchUp 
Sometimes, I think the "W" stands for "Windowizer". I wonder how that would look on a driver's license..."Rick Windowizer". Hmmm...
Nah.
Cheers,
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could we talk now about the desire of eternity ?
in this thread ? .just for a little bit.
.when where kids we had it. no doubt about it.
how could it dwell with that collective
@plot-paris said:if there is an entity like God, I would describe it as a collective intelligence.
any answers appreciated
but just for a little bit
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J.V.S.,
Re that: "...how could it dwell with that collective"?!!The Church (not buildings...) is composed of all those who are born again, and those which are united in the one body of Jesus Christ through the baptizing of the Holy Spirit, thus being limbs to one another (1 Corintians 12:13; Ephesians 1:22-23).
We are responsible for keeping the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace, rising above denominational prejudices and cult bigotry (Ephesians 4:3-6).Cornel
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Being Born Again!
I believe in the necessity and possibility of being born again (John 3:7-16), which is the implantation of a divine nature in man (Jacob 1:18; Titus 3:5) as a response to faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Romans 10:9-10). Eternal lifeis a gift from God, and needs to be accepted in a personal way (Romans 6:23; John 20:28).
Cornel
P.S.: Modelhead, regarding your "...is not equal to": it's based on a personal decision... (mine/your resolution!!!)
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You are welcome, J.V.S.!
A 'bonus' for everyone:
SALVATION COMES THROUGH GRACE(offered freely and without merit), and only through grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 2:11-12; 3:4-5). The works of the Law and the merits of man have no role in the obtainment of Salvation (Galatians 2:16). Through personal faith in the complete work of our Lord Jesus Christ, people can enter in the possession of salvation: they are born again (John 1:12-13), their sins are forgiven (Acts 10:43), they become children of God and citizens of heaven (Galatians 3:26; 1 John 3:1; Ephesians 2:19). Through divine providence they are guided and kept saved (Romans 8:14; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1).
It is the privilege of everyone that is born again to be sure of their salvation right from the moment they accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. This assurance is not based on the merits of living, but on the testimony of God through His Word (Romans 8:38-39; 1 John 5:11-13).Cornel
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you always enlightens me
thanks modelhead:|
%(#804000)[] -
that is pretty interesting
Cornel,
thank you.
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It was just a nice wishing Modelhead.
nothing really important.
Though to me it helps. Cheers. -
desire for eternity... interesting question, Juan.
eternity is quite a long time and somehow difficult (impossible) to grasp for my limited mind.
to use my theory again - dying means leaving an imprint on the collective spirit of the earth, becoming a part of it. therefore, as long as there is life on earth, you will "live" on; or rather, the influence you had on this earth will have contributed it's part to the spirits development.
as for reincarnation, rebirth?
I never found an explanation that I really could understand and that satisfied me. would love to hear one though
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@rickw said:
It occured to me that the way I am saying things may be confusing to some. So here's a story that I hope illustrates things:
A man went outside after a rainstorm and saw that the streets were wet. A few days later, as he was walking, he saw a wet street and decided, "it must have rained here," and he walked on home. Because he was out walking, he missed the news report that a water main had broken near where he was walking, causing streets to be wet.
He saw the evidence (the street was wet), and the evidence was accommodated by his theory (it had rained). However, the evidence was also accommodated by alternate causes (badly adjusted irrigation system, leaky water truck, a broken water main, melting ice or snow, someone washing their car, etc.), one of which happened to be the actual situation.
The point is, the available evidence is accommodated by more than one theory. That being the case, the evidence (as it is) cannot be said to prove one or the other.
I agree sure but my point was the alternative you posited are based on previous experience of the person which can be independently shared by any number of individuals who experienced rain before encountering this event. It doesn't in anyway make God more likely.
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