Substance and Sketchup Workflow

JQL · 24 Jul 2015, 14:57

And did you not see that model I just showed you that was uv unwrapped and rendered in thea? what's the difference.

There's no difference, I know I can render an unwrapped model in Sketchup, the question is how to easily unwrap it.

I wouldn't know where to start, Rich adviced blender, but with the incredible amount of going back and forth my models have, I'm a bit scared that unwrapping will be a step to create ultimate confusion in my workflow.

There's nothing like trying it and I will, of course, try it. Just holding my breath before I dive in to it...

JQL · 24 Jul 2015, 14:58

But Kris did you model it? How did you unwrap it?

Krisidious · 24 Jul 2015, 15:00

AC3D easiest unwrapper around. almost completely automatic in some cases it is... in other you may want to edit a bit. But we use maps that other people are going to paint later, so it needs to look a certain way. but if it's just you? easypeasy.

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Krisidious · 24 Jul 2015, 15:02

Krisidious · 24 Jul 2015, 15:04

just part of the uvunwrapped textures on that car. and it rendered very fast. that top texture map is 1000x1000?

JQL · 24 Jul 2015, 15:16

Oh no! Do I have to do all that hand work on separating faces?

I have no time for that!

Imagine I model a pipe like that with some windows around.

I unwrapp it by hand like that...

What happens if the pipe gets stretched?

Krisidious · 24 Jul 2015, 15:22

You don't map stuff until you're done with an object or you remap it after you modify it. a pipe is not really something that takes any time to unwrap. you just select the faces and hit the button then save the image map. same with a box or any standard shapes. it's cars and what not that get harder.

You can map multiple things to one map or each to their own. but to me, procedural means it doesn't need a map, it maps on the fly as it covers a surface. so as to not repeat an to flow or seem more realistic. it would use an algorithm to show a natural surface.

JQL · 24 Jul 2015, 16:01

I'm not fully grasping, I have to try it!

The only comment I can make is that, of course, I'm not very concerned with cilinders but with the actual stuff I need to create wich is a bit more complex (though not as complex as a car)

Krisidious · 24 Jul 2015, 16:09

there are two or three plugins for AC3D that make the job a bit easier than that...

jason_maranto · 24 Jul 2015, 16:12

To answer the resolution question, in some cases it is possible to go higher. You definately want to do the bulk of the work at lower resolutions, but a lot of the best features of Substances come through geometry-baked textures as the base... baking those textures can be resource intensive at larger resolutions.

Substances make alot more sense for character and prop models based on subD which have high poly sculpts (ZBrush or similar) to pull geometry-based information from. SketchUp models are usually so basic that the best features of Substances really will be marginalized. And that is before you even have to deal with UV unwrap and seam issues.

Substances are geard toward next gen (sculpt heavy) wokflows being developed by vidogame companies. SubD modeling and great UVs are the basis of how these projects need to be done to see maximum results.

Krisidious · 24 Jul 2015, 16:24

watch this tut starting at the time set.

JQL · 24 Jul 2015, 16:27

@jason_maranto said:

Substances make alot more sense for character and prop models based on subD which have high poly sculpts (ZBrush or similar) to pull geometry-based information from.

I also understand this quite clearly.

@unknownuser said:

SketchUp models are usually so basic that the best features of Substances really will be marginalized. And that is before you even have to deal with UV unwrap and seam issues.

Simple is good!

So imagine all I want for a given model is to use one of the edge procedurals to create a fake bevel in my arch models.

Would I need to unwrap it to achieve my objective, or would I be able to achieve this without unwrapping?

(I'm sorry for the insistence in unwrap without even trying, but that really is work that I wouldn't want to introduce in my workflow. I'd prefer to have no bevel than to waste half an hour unwrapping a model)

jason_maranto · 24 Jul 2015, 16:39

Edge effects are all controlled by geometry baked textures, so resolution would be an issue for larger models and UVs will become an issue if not properly handled. That is also assuming the SketchUp created geometry is intelligable to SD/SP... which could be the fault of the model creator or SketchUp itself.

JQL · 24 Jul 2015, 17:00

@jason_maranto said:

Edge effects are all controlled by geometry baked textures, so resolution would be an issue for larger models and UVs will become an issue if not properly handled. That is also assuming the SketchUp created geometry is intelligable to SD/SP... which could be the fault of the model creator or SketchUp itself.

Well I really have to try. I know how to texture a model in SU as preciselly as possible and only that unwrapping slips my grasp. My main objective is to keep everything inside sketchup as long as I can and just jump out of it when I really need.

Of course I'm open to a broader frame of mind if that does pay off.

Thanks for all your help Jason.

Let's see where this leads to...

JQL · 24 Jul 2015, 17:02

@krisidious said:

watch this tut starting at the time set.

I don't get it. At a certain stage the guy is trying to make squares fit together quite precisely, then, suddenly he starts dragging and scaling things around in what seamed a random way to me.

In the end the squares didn't fit together, obviously, so why did he do that in the first place?

Krisidious · 24 Jul 2015, 17:17

4096 is as high as the maps go.

they do already have procedural choices like tile size and dirt and aging. you can apply it in the converter then apply the texture to the model.

But it doesn't seem to map correctly on it's own.

He's doing that because the car is to scale and the image is pixels. the larger the mode detail of course and the uvw unwrap doesn't actually have to touch all over.

Krisidious · 24 Jul 2015, 17:22

JQL · 24 Jul 2015, 17:35

Yeah... Thea Substance Converter is pretty cool! I love hitting the randomize button!

Krisidious · 24 Jul 2015, 17:52

without the real substance studio I think you will have to use maps and you will not get any of the options to affect the map procedurally.

JQL · 24 Jul 2015, 18:14

@krisidious said:

without the real substance studio I think you will have to use maps and you will not get any of the options to affect the map procedurally.

That's true and that's almost what I have right now. I'm used to create my own maps with an image editor and I like the control I have, but it takes me so much time fine tunning everything.

I recently found awesome bump and it serves it's purpose very well and is also able to generate all the pbr maps one needs and name them with any convention.

Basically that emulates the B2M workflow and it can also be used with Thea converter to automatically create a PBR material.

So it really is the ability to tinker with procedurals inside Thea Substance Converter that is ticking me to dive into Designer.

However, if you think of it that way, you're not getting much as the final result is a static material.

So substance designer only really starts paying off if you use it for procedurally and non desctructivelly texture a specific model.

Let's assume we can get a sketchup model to export nicely to Substance Designer, using 3ds or collada or obj. (as Jason pointed out it's not clear that even this is easily achievable...) But let's assume we can, then it all comes down to what Rich pointed out initially. UV mapping or ultimatelly UV unwrapping.

If I can deal with that in my workflow, I can justify using Designer as it's the UV unwrapping that will allows me to place the effects I want, in the right place of the model inside Substance and then turn that substance into a material I can replace with a thea material inside sketchup.

I'm willing to take the long shot and I hope I'll have an as streamlined as possible workflow in the near future (with just the enough details we need in architecture) to share with you guys.