Let's build a new 3D software!
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Engineers should never mess around with anything that Architects use...!
I share Oli's frustrations, and it has got to the point where I doubt I can trust SketchUp these days.
The latest in my frustrations hinges around the North tool, or the absence thereof, and before anyone suggests using the North Tool plugin, let me say that the plugin doesn't cover all my bases.
It is time consuming, annoying, frustrating and unnecessary to have to fart arse around with setting up a project for a Sun Study and apply textures that become disoriented under the current system and never be certain that the information I am providing is correct.
There are legal implications for those of us who get a Sun Study wrong. We simply need to be able to set the location, GMT, allow for changes in seasonal time adjustments, and the date and times we require to be able to do what we have to do. Geo locating should be a choice instead of the only option...!
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Hmmm...
I've been reading through this thread, and I don't share much of the pessimism. The only thing I share common ground is on the question of performance - which can be much improved on large models, as has been said many times.
My use of Sketchup is in Architecture. For small projects, I am even making construction drawings using SU and LO. I am actually very happy with the BIM direction that Sketchup seems to be moving in, as it promises to increase my productivity.
But the big strength about Sketchup is the ecosystem around it. Plugins and the 3D warehouse are the two big ones (although the organisation of the 3D Warehouse leaves much to be desired). I love how instead of moaning how your software doesn't so something you want, you can direct your energy into A. finding an existing plugin or B. making a plugin yourself to do what you want to do.
Can't we trust the Sketchup team to simply concentrate on improving the core in the little ways they can, extend the API, and even provide a different language API if we think that there will be speed improvements?
Are you sure you can't simply make a (big) plugin to fulfil those dreams? Or at least request extra API features from Sketchup?
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I don't feel there is enough interest for this to go ahead. Obviously people are happy waiting and waiting and waiting and....
The scale of time, money, collaboration, people, marketing is way too high for this to be achievable. Of course it can be done but there is no interest.
We've had talks of SketchUp "Ultimate" before and nothing ever happens. I can only try and rally people together but if there is no desire to change things, then we will just have to use other apps if we are looking for performance.
<Opens Blender>
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Maybe there's no will for it here Oli - I suppose there will always be a certain loyalty here to SU - but maybe you are simply appealing to the wrong audience?
I agree with you 100%, there's a huge gap in the market for something with SU's ease of use, but the power and scalability of Blender etc. - more so every day as 3D printing etc. become more available.
Maybe approaching the Blender community would be more beneficial..
- It is all open source, with a large, enthusiastic and committed developer base.
- Has API's for (IIRC) Python and C++.
- Has a mature, fast and reliable 3D engine behind the scenes.
- Easily extendable with plugins, C extensions etc.
Really, the only part of the brief that it doesn't match, is the SU like handling of regular solid shapes, push/pull etc. and the inferencing engine. But are those not something that would appeal to a large number of Blender users? - I think they'd all lap it up! I don't know any of the other alternatives well enough to comment, but I can't see any software community wanting to turn down something that makes what they do faster, simpler and more intuitive!
Obviously, there may be issues of intellectual property (Trimble considered SU valuable for some reason!) - but it seems to me that 'skinning' Blender to make it more intuitive would be less of a task than creating a whole new engine from scratch, or waiting for Trimble to do this to SU.
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You are basically saying it's easier to down-tune Blender than to tune-up SketchUp?
Great idea! Thanks for the input.
I don't really have my foot in the door with the blender community yet but I hope to soon.
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Trog, I meant to plus 1 your post but I hit the wrong button (sorry). Skinning Blender sounds like a great idea.
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A good start would be to narrow down and specify what is mostly needed. Then to explain in detail how for example inference should work. I think a list of specific functions and ui changes would easier caught the interest of a programmer than just " make it more like SU".
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OK, I know you hate blender.
You shouldn't.
Similar to Oli's motivations turned me to a blenderhead or something LOLHowever, have a look. Fluid designer, based on blender.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fluid+designer -
I was waiting for you to comment, Michalis. I hope you are doing well.
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@unknownuser said:
Are you sure you can't simply make a (big) plugin to fulfil those dreams?
The question is whether the type of requests can be satisfied by making a plugin of inifinite size.
SketchUp's plugin API gives only a finite amount of methods, and is for creating/modifying geometry (and it's actually quite good and well-structured). What plugins cannot touch is everything that concerns the core (performance, UI paradigms, UI scalability, platform availability, including mobile). Simply said, plugin authors cannot turn it into the 3d app of 2020.The same question applies to down-tuning Blender. Do Blender's extensibility options allow to fulfill these wishes, including customizing features near the core (inferencing), without requiring upstream changes (that is persuading all the Blender foundation).
Michalis's link looks very promising!
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I suspect with the rise of 3d printers that a software will suddenly appear that is simple, intuative, powerful and able to be used by the uninitiated. It will come from someone who isn't hampered by how the different types of 3d software work. Someone will think sideways and make a fortune while changing the world. Most of us will wonder how we didn't come up with it first.
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I think it may be possible the Blender core could accommodate some tweaks to make 3D modeling easier. You can do basic inferencing by locking to an axis and turning on vertex snapping. There's probably preferences that let it get a little looser, but right now it's very harsh, and snaps to everything all the time. I'm sure there's ways to lock to normals and stuff like that, I actually think it's not that out of reach. I just don't have time to tinker, and am so used to churning out geometry quickly in SU.
I think there really is quite a hurdle in bringing people to yet another piece of software. Even the "Super-SU" per Oli's original concept means another thing to learn. I think Box may be on to something - that the next big thing will come out of a different field. Here's hoping...
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@andybot said:
I think Box may be on to something - that the next big thing will come out of a different field. Here's hoping...
Same here. I don't believe we are looking at 3D software with fresh eyes.
We need something completely new. While I compare my ideology to a mixture of SketchUp and Blender, what I mean is I want the ease of SU with the power of Blender. There are simply some models you can make in Blender that you can not make in SketchUp.
This is not to say the new software should resemble either SU or Blender. I just can't believe the 3D conventions are set in stone, there must be something more fluid and intuitive to come.
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Modo is the perfect example of such commitment to new conventions.
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I hate to say it but FormZ 8 looks very good with some of it's new features. Worth looking into if nothing else for ideas.
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It's all about controlling topology.
There are excellent applications around, maintaining the appropriate control on topology.
Non of them is easy to use. Not a SU like UI, I mean.
Let's face it. The 3d world has it's own rules. It is a virtual reality.
We have to talk using a deferent language.
This becomes a real PITA regarding UserInterface.
A UI is the essence of the code inside an application.
This is the real problem, IMO.
When we are in Pshop, trying for a decent CMYK conversion, we have to understand the language of an offset printer or any other printer. The limitations of the inks.
When we're going for 3d printing, we have to understand how the 3dprinter works.
When we're going for video game assets, once again, we have to understand all about the art of baking nice normal maps. (and much more limitations of the game engines)
When we design for real building, concrete, wood work, etc this we should have in mind.
To create a friendly UI, what does it mean, really?Most people hate the zbrush UI. I faced the same difficulties when I started learning it.
However, start sculpting, try to handle it using a wacom only. You may think otherwise.My english don't help me much, sorry.
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Ur English is perfect.
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Hello Michalis
Have you try Verve? It's only 2D but...
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Maybe Trimble should be looking at Euclideon with a view to incorporating their technology with SketchUp?
"With a claim of “unlimited geometry,” an Australian start-up called Euclideon is getting serious industry and media attention, even though their product is not yet released. Their technology uses point-cloud data rather than polygons and, as a result, they promise digital environments that are 100,000 times more detailed than the current state of the art."
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