Safe place to store user-defined parameters
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I'll wait till your finished before I bite your head off...
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@chris fullmer said:
Talking it over a little bit here with a Mac person, I still think that the ~/Library/Application Support/ folder is the right starting point. It exists on all Macs, and is specifically designed to be the location that support files get saved to. To me, that is the definition of what Fredo is looking for, and it is sanctioned by Mac. So it CAN'T be against their own "Every app is an island" viewpoint, or else they wouldn't have created it, right?
On iOS, apps are quite strictly sandboxed. Each app gets its own virtual disk image and can't read or write anything outside that image.
But in Mac OS X, this is not yet the case. An app can read and write anything for which the user has adequate permission anywhere on any drive. And, using shell scripting such as John has provided, a plugin can ultimately bypass the app's own API and rules to execute arbitrary UNIX commands.
The sandboxing rules today on OS X only exist as conventions that developers are asked to respect (required to respect if their code is published via the App Store). But, as John has alluded, Apple is trying to beef up the sandboxing because so many apps spew files all over the disk and this makes it difficult or impossible to completely remove an app. Rumor is that the next edition ("Mavericks", expected in the Fall) will have some changes in this regard.
So, whereas ~/Library/Application Support/<appnane>/... has been the conventional place for applications to save helper files, this could change.
Based on all of this, it seems to me that the only place that simultaneously provides:
- assured read and write permission for the user
- logical/code consistency between Windows and Mac
- support within SketchUp for readily finding the folder by a plugin
is a plugin's own subfolder within whatever folder SketchUp is using to store user-added extensions. That is, when you tell SU to add an extension, SU itself chooses the appropriate folder ("Plugins" somewhere) and unzips your rbz file there. You have to have write permission in that folder, else SU couldn't install the extension. At that point your plugin code can query to find out where it was installed and can create more subfolders as well as write and read arbitrary files there. The plugin should not hard code any path such as "C:\Program Files\SketchUp\Plugins" or "~/Library/Application Support/SketchUp 2013/SketchUp/Plugins". It should use either Sketchup.find_support_file(...) or File.dirname(FILE) or something similar to get SU to reveal where the extension was loaded, and then use relative paths from there.
That approach both allows arbitrary files to be written and read, but also will survive if SU is compelled to change the physical folder where extensions are stored because OS security rules were tightened.
Steve
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@driven said:
I'll wait till your finished before I bite your head off...
I'm done John, you can start chewing
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@Steve - Writing to a plugin's folder on Windows can fail though, so its not really a god solution for Windows. And up until 2013, it should have been equally likely to fail on Mac as well, because plugins were being written to /Library/Application Support, which is public, which requires admin rights. Only since 2013 have Plugins been written to ~/Library/Application Support/..., which is completely writeable by the current user.
Also, we're not writing in iOS, so their extreme sandboxing isn't a concern here (yet?). It will be interesting to see what Maverick implements. But its hard enough to develop for backwards compatibility and current compatibility....forward speculative compatibility might be a little too speculative for my taste.
Chris
PS - for the record, I have nothing to do with Macs and the decisions we make about how we handle the Mac files system, so don't let me ignorance scare you too much. They won't let me ruin SU on your Mac any time soon
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@chris fullmer said:
@Steve - Writing to a plugin's folder on Windows can fail though, so its not really a god solution for Windows.
Chris - why would the write fail? It seems that if the user could install a plugin there, he should also be able to write a file there. I'm missing something about the real core of the problem...
@chris fullmer said:
And up until 2013, it should have been equally likely to fail on Mac as well, because plugins were being written to /Library/Application Support, which is public, which requires admin rights. Only since 2013 have Plugins been written to ~/Library/Application Support/..., which is completely writeable by the current user.
Yeah, /Library/Application Support really should be only for files installed along with the app itself that need to affect all users. User-installed extensions, etc, should have been in ~/Library/Application Support all along. Before anybody bites my head off, I know that there have been previous discussions here disparaging ~/Library, but I think they were and still are wrong. However, that does leave the question on a shared computer of where/how to install extensions that you want to affect all users' instances of SU.
@chris fullmer said:
Also, we're not writing in iOS, so their extreme sandboxing isn't a concern here (yet?). It will be interesting to see what Maverick implements. But its hard enough to develop for backwards compatibility and current compatibility....forward speculative compatibility might be a little too speculative for my taste.
Chris
PS - for the record, I have nothing to do with Macs and the decisions we make about how we handle the Mac files system, so don't let me ignorance scare you too much. They won't let me ruin SU on your Mac any time soon
Yeah, I know SU isn't for iOS, just thought I'd throw that in as an example of how Apple's thought processes may be running. OS X is ultimately a wrapper around a full Unix system, and without losing all of the users (like John and I) who like to step behind the curtain now and then, there are limits on how far Apple can go.
And don't worry - whatever you come up with to mess up SU on my Mac, I'll find a way to defeat it
Steve
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@chris fullmer said:
Only since 2013 have Plugins been written to ~/Library/Application Support/..., which is completely writeable by the current user.
For the record, SU could always use User Library and Steve and myself as well as many others have mostly done so...
AS far as I'm aware @Last suggested User Library or at least didn't stop it. It was always the mis-matching that caused problems,.
Progressbar.rb bought it to a head when yourself and others started linking to it and when it was in the 'other' folder your plugins would fail.
Unfortunately the wrong solution was quickly established on SCF and Google 'then' followed suit.that my recollection, though flawed it my be...
john
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@unknownuser said:
On Mac, there seems to be difference between copying a file in a directory and creating the file or folder from within a program. This is a basic things for security. The problem users have with DEFPARAM_Dir folder is exactly that. Ruby cannot create it, but you can create it manually.
What I am looking for is a safe place where Ruby can create folders and files.
Now, if, as suggested by Chris, I use /Library/Application Support/ as the root, the question is whether the root should not be /Library/Application Support/Sketchup, so that all SU plugins could create their own subfolders there. This would be much cleaner than if I create my folder at /Library/Application Support/LibFredo6.
My feeling is that this question should be taken seriously by the Sketchup application itself and supported from Ruby so that script writers don't have to bother.
Final word: excuse my ignorance, but what is the subtle difference between /Library/Application Support/ and ~/Library/Application Support/
On Mac, there seems to be difference between copying a file in a directory and creating the file or folder from within a program. This is a basic things for security. The problem users have with DEFPARAM_Dir folder is exactly that. Ruby cannot create it, but you can create it manually.
What I am looking for is a safe place where Ruby can create folders and files.
Now, if, as suggested by Chris, I use /Library/Application Support/ as the root, the question is whether the root should not be /Library/Application Support/Sketchup, so that all SU plugins could create their own subfolders there. This would be much cleaner than if I create my folder at /Library/Application Support/LibFredo6.
My feeling is that this question should be taken seriously by the Sketchup application itself and supported from Ruby so that script writers don't have to bother.
Final word: excuse my ignorance, but what is the subtle difference between /Library/Application Support/ and ~/Library/Application Support/?
Fredo
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%(#FF0040)[File.expand_path("~")
/Users/johns_iMac] -
@fredo6 said:
@unknownuser said:
On Mac, there seems to be difference between copying a file in a directory and creating the file or folder from within a program. This is a basic things for security.
From what I know of Unix, this doesn't make sense to me. Can you give me an example?
@fredo6 said:
The problem users have with DEFPARAM_Dir folder is exactly that. Ruby cannot create it, but you can create it manually.
I'll have to try that out and see if I can understand why that happens. Does this occur on all versions of SU, including 2013, or only on older ones?
@fredo6 said:
What I am looking for is a safe place where Ruby can create folders and files.
Now, if, as suggested by Chris, I use /Library/Application Support/ as the root, the question is whether the root should not be /Library/Application Support/Sketchup, so that all SU plugins could create their own subfolders there. This would be much cleaner than if I create my folder at /Library/Application Support/LibFredo6.
My feeling is that this question should be taken seriously by the Sketchup application itself and supported from Ruby so that script writers don't have to bother.
Final word: excuse my ignorance, but what is the subtle difference between /Library/Application Support/ and ~/Library/Application Support/?
Fredo
First, you should understand that "~" is Unix shorthand for the user's home directory, usually /Users/<username>. /Library/Application Support is a central folder that all users can normally read, but non-admin users may not be able to write (varies). ~/Library is by default hidden by Finder, so many users don't even know it exists, but it is owned and normally writable by the user. It is also not normally viewable or writable by other users, and is meant to hold the application settings that are personal to that user.
And, yes, you should work within a subfolder of ~/Library/Application Support, not right there in the base. SU 2013 puts subfolders in ~/Library/Application Support/SketchUp 2013/SketchUp/. For example, that's where the Plugins fol
On Mac, there seems to be difference between copying a file in a directory and creating the file or folder from within a program. This is a basic things for security. [/quote]
From what I know of Unix, this doesn't make sense to me. Can you give me an example?
@fredo6 said:
The problem users have with DEFPARAM_Dir folder is exactly that. Ruby cannot create it, but you can create it manually.
I'll have to try that out and see if I can understand why that happens. Does this occur on all versions of SU, including 2013, or only on older ones?
[quote="fredo6":3f9n25ud]
What I am looking for is a safe place where Ruby can create folders and files.
Now, if, as suggested by Chris, I use /Library/Application Support/ as the root, the question is whether the root should not be /Library/Application Support/Sketchup, so that all SU plugins could create their own subfolders there. This would be much cleaner than if I create my folder at /Library/Application Support/LibFredo6.
My feeling is that this question should be taken seriously by the Sketchup application itself and supported from Ruby so that script writers don't have to bother.
Final word: excuse my ignorance, but what is the subtle difference between /Library/Application Support/ and ~/Library/Application Support/?
Fredo[/quote:3f9n25ud]
First, you should understand that "~" is Unix shorthand for the user's home directory, usually /Users/<username>. /Library/Application Support is a central folder that all users can normally read, but non-admin users may not be able to write (varies). ~/Library is by default hidden by Finder, so many users don't even know it exists, but it is owned and normally writable by the user. It is also not normally viewable or writable by other users, and is meant to hold the application settings that are personal to that user.
And, yes, you should work within a subfolder of ~/Library/Application Support, not right there in the base. SU 2013 puts subfolders in ~/Library/Application Support/SketchUp 2013/SketchUp/. For example, that's where the Plugins folder lives.
Steve
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@fredo6 said:
The problem users have with DEFPARAM_Dir folder is exactly that. Ruby cannot create it, but you can create it manually.
Fredo,
excuse me, but that's a crock, the only reason it will fail to write is if the encoding is wrong...
UFT8 and Unix(LF) will always write to SU from ruby on the mac, if there errors it will fail, but it will write.
where is an example of it failing to?
john
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This is most likely your problem...
this is how mac interprets your file, where it actually runs fine
/ToolsOnSurface.def: ASCII text, with very long lines
my mac's Terminal.app is set
LANG="en_US" LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8" LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8" LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8" LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8" LC_ALL="en_US.UTF-8"SU is set
`locale` LANG= LC_COLLATE="C" LC_CTYPE="C" LC_MESSAGES="C" LC_MONETARY="C" LC_NUMERIC="C" LC_TIME="C" LC_ALL=given an Asian and maybe some European locale things may be problematic...
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yes, that it... or maybe not I do some checking
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@driven said:
excuse me, but that's a crock, the only reason it will fail to write is if the encoding is wrong...
UFT8 and Unix(LF) will always write to SU from ruby on the mac, if there errors it will fail, but it will write.
I think the problem of security may be about creating a folder from Ruby. The most frequent issue reported is about the creation of DEFPARAM_dir in the SU Plugins directory.
Fredo
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@slbaumgartner said:
@chris fullmer said:
@Steve - Writing to a plugin's folder on Windows can fail though, so its not really a god solution for Windows.
Chris - why would the write fail? It seems that if the user could install a plugin there, he should also be able to write a file there. I'm missing something about the real core of the problem...
Under windows the Program Files folder is locked down. They only want application packages installed - but the user should not add/remove files to it. And often users cannot add files to the Plugins folder - but Windows won't throw an error - instead place the files in the Virtual Store creating a shim which cause all sort of confusion and problems. You have to run as user with administrator rights and UAC turned off to avoid these issues.
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This discussion seems to go on and on and ignore the simplest of solutions.
Find the users 'Temp' folder [names vary with OS etc]...
I have previously outlined how to get this for MAC and PC.
This 'Temp' folder is useful for holding temporary data, it can be purged by the system, so permament data needs to reside elsewhere...
This 'Local/Temp' folder is in a 'folder tree'.
The folder containing the 'Temp' folder can be found using File.dirname(tempfolderpath).
That container folder can be used to make your own subfolder to hold your more permanent data.
That container folder has the same unrestricted rights for the User as the Temp folder itself.
It is intended to hold app-specific folders/data...
Just open the C:/Users/User/Local folder to see this...What is the problem in doing it this way?
I have done it thus for a long time, without any issues whatsoever...
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@fredo6 said:
I think the problem of security may be about creating a folder from Ruby. The most frequent issue reported is about the creation of DEFPARAM_dir in the SU Plugins directory.
Fredo
Dir.mkdir should work fine in any folder where the user has write permission.
Do you know exactly what error message they get when this fails? That would help with diagnosis. Unless you trap them in your code, the error messages will appear in the Ruby Console. Two possibilities that come to mind:
Errno::EACCES: Permission denied - <name of the dir you tried to create> This means this user doesn't have write permission for the base folder in which you are trying to create a new dir. Could happen if they've somehow gotten your plugin installed in ~/Library/Application Support/..../Plugins but you are trying to create your directory in /Library/Application Support/.../Plugins. That could happen in SU 8 and earlier if you picked up SU's default path to plugins (/Library...) where an ordinary user might not have write permission. In this situation, the plugin itself must have been installed in ~/Library because a user always has permission there. SU 2013 has changed to keep plugins in ~/Library
Errno::ENOENT: No such file or directory - <the path you gave when you called Dir.mkdir> The path you gave does not exist (the base path leading up to your new dir, which of course does not itself exist unless the mkdir call succeeds). Note that Dir.mkdir does not expand "~", so you have to do it if you want to work in ~/Library/..., e.g. "/Users/Steve/Library/..."
Hope that helps
Steve -
@thomthom said:
@slbaumgartner said:
@chris fullmer said:
@Steve - Writing to a plugin's folder on Windows can fail though, so its not really a god solution for Windows.
Chris - why would the write fail? It seems that if the user could install a plugin there, he should also be able to write a file there. I'm missing something about the real core of the problem...
Under windows the Program Files folder is locked down. They only want application packages installed - but the user should not add/remove files to it. And often users cannot add files to the Plugins folder - but Windows won't throw an error - instead place the files in the Virtual Store creating a shim which cause all sort of confusion and problems. You have to run as user with administrator rights and UAC turned off to avoid these issues.
Whoa! I didn't know about this Virtual Store/shim stuff. That sounds like Windows setting you up for problems! Simulating a write to a place you don't have permission to write (to install the plugin) then later refusing permission to write to the same place!!???
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@tig said:
This discussion seems to go on and on and ignore the simplest of solutions.
Find the users 'Temp' folder [names vary with OS etc]...
I have previously outlined how to get this for MAC and PC.
This 'Temp' folder is useful for holding temporary data, it can be purged by the system, so permament data needs to reside elsewhere...
This 'Local/Temp' folder is in a 'folder tree'.
The folder containing the 'Temp' folder can be found using File.dirname(tempfolderpath).
That container folder can be used to make your own subfolder to hold your more permanent data.
That container folder has the same unrestricted rights for the User as the Temp folder itself.
It is intended to hold app-specific folders/data...
Just open the C:/Users/User/Local folder to see this...What is the problem in doing it this way?
I have done it thus for a long time, without any issues whatsoever...TIG - already answered. All of the tmp, temp, etc folders are meant for working files used while a program is running. No OS that I know of promises to keep such files around after the program exits. It may have been working for you, but that is only because the OS is lazy about cleaning up. This could change with any update. Also, most "disk cleanup" programs will erase the contents of these folders, so you are running risk of a user blowing away your data and then blaming you.
Steve
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TIG speaks not of the temporary folder itself, but of its "parent folder". Under the assumptions of Windows users this would be a writable app data directory (exactly what we've been searching):
C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Local%(#999999)[\Temp](Probably equal to what we get from the APPDATA environment variable.)
But we cannot blindly take a parent folder without knowing what it is. There is nothing wrong if other operating systems have the temporary folder at root level/tmpwith no parent. Still not a single solution without OS-specific switches. -
On a modern PC the user's
Tempfolder's 'container' is going to beC:/Users/User/AppData/Local/: or something slightly different on XP...
On a MAC it's a seemingly meaningless folder name that contains the user's temp folder [named 'T']: something like/var/folders/rp/b9k42l5x7xngx_8tckgs0zdr0000gn/
Both of these 'containers' are consistently made and are intended to be always be fully read/writable by the user and the user's applications - that is why they are there.
The Unix-like/tmpfolder should never be needed, and it's not returned by ENV [my earlier illustrations of a hierarchy of temp folders had it in as a 'fall back' should all else failed]...Other apps use the 'Local' folder to store their data in their own subfolders.
The differences between Local and Roaming were also spelled out in one of my earlier posts in this thread.
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