How can anyone possibly use layout

frv · 3 Jun 2013, 11:11

I am on a Macpro, 8 core 3Gh.
I think for my use Layout is completely useless. I will give it another try with a model as simple as possible. But I don't think Layout is anywere near a productive solution. This was nr. 1 reason nobody uses Layout and I am afraid that will stay that way for a long time.
I know there are a few that go through the hassle to figure out how to minimize models and workflows to get something out Layout. But once you get your work done in Vectorworks or the likes you quickly forget the frustrations in layout. The idea behind Layout is great though. Wish it provided a true CAD experience.
Francois

Dave R · 3 Jun 2013, 11:19

I use LayOut all the time and I find it works just fine. I don't have any problems with rendering times now with LO2013. Even on large, complex models, rendering goes very quickly. The other day I had to make changes to a model and update two sets of construction documents. the change in sketchUp took me about 10 minutes and between the two documents I probably spent a total of five minutes updating them. Most of that time was spent opening the files and redoing some text and dimensions. Very minor time investment for the results and I delivered the revised PDF files to the client in less than 30 minutes.

frv · 3 Jun 2013, 12:33

ok, thats hopefull. Considering your reply I have to dig into Layout a little further.
But to follow advise from someone who dreams about inspecting mirrors...
Anyone else who thinks Layout just works fine ?
Francois

Dave R · 3 Jun 2013, 12:44

Francois, I will tell you that if you aren't establishing the views you want as scenes in SketchUp, you're probably wasting your time with LayOut. There is a proper work flow for this stuff. Follow it and it should work just fine. If you aren't doing that, it isn't fair to denigrate the software.

frv · 3 Jun 2013, 14:23

ok, got that. I will try some more.
But its rather clear very few use Layout and that is strange considering the amount of architect-users.

I think many have the same experience I have. But still, you are right. If there is a workflow that makes up for it I will try to find it. I can clearly see advantages if Layout can do even just a little of what it promises.
Francois

otb designworks · 3 Jun 2013, 14:32

For what it's worth, I generated over 600 pages of blueprints, shop drawings, and general detail work in layout last year alone.

For me, it is indispensable, and that is with all of it's short comings.

As Dave said, it really is all about workflow. Fine tune that and it is only mildly frustrating. Don't have a a clean and organized workflow and it can be downright miserable.

frv · 3 Jun 2013, 15:40

tx Chuck,
My problem is also that Vectorworks in 2D is as fast as you will ever need. No lagtime at all what ever you do. Drawings look amazing and you can just import any modeling geometry from Sketchup into Vectorworks. With Layout I am hoping for a more refined modeling-2D/output workflow were models update the 2D work instead of having to redo a lot in Vectorworks. A bit more of a revit experience in a positive sense
Layout could easily be as big as Sketchup. I do understand how powerful the potential is. As said, the replies make me want to give it another try. But as said as well, anyone who has hit a brick wall with Layout I would urge to reply saving me time trying.
Francois

Dave R · 3 Jun 2013, 15:46

I don't know why you're looking for people who have hit a brick wall with LayOut. If they have it's their own fault because they haven't learned how to use it correctly. Do you want reviews on how a motorcycle drives from people who doesn't know how to drive one?

timzy · 3 Jun 2013, 16:57

Layout simply does not have the sophisticated line drawing workflow of a nice drafting package like Vectorworks. There is a strong tradition of communicating 3D projects through 2D drawings using delicate line weights and styles. When an art director says "make that line dashed" or "make that one thicker and red" it can't just happen like in a 2D drafting set up.

I believe that building projects as 3D models is a much more efficient and sophisticated way to design but we still have to commit it to paper to communicate. If you have a clean, accurate 3D build then layout is definitely the fastest way to present that model. Just don't expect it to produce intricate drafting documents in a traditional sense. My advice would be to rely more on the 3D as much as possible to communicate and use layout to add the details.

I think a good layout document can speak more clearly to a wider group of people than a traditional drawing set. Some nice 3D views, a few choice measurements, good notes and suddenly everyone has the same picture of the project - laymen, tradespeople, committee members, administrative staff, your kids - everyone.

Layout could be better - a lot better - but I think the big brick wall is mainly shifting gears.

pbacot · 3 Jun 2013, 17:22

@timzy said:

Just don't expect it to produce intricate drafting documents in a traditional sense. My advice would be to rely more on the 3D as much as possible to communicate and use layout to add the details.

I think a good layout document can speak more clearly to a wider group of people than a traditional drawing set.

Layout could be better - a lot better - but I think the big brick wall is mainly shifting gears.

Actually it won't be traditional. It may be better. I myself haven't delved so deep, but Sonder, Bmike, and others have shown what is possible, and the output can be quite intricate. They had to approach it in a different way than they did their former CAD (e.g. AutoCAD) and it took time to rebuild their method. But we now have examples, books and videos mounting, to give the rest of us an idea of how to proceed. For myself, I use LO for presentation of 3d and 2d schematics, and I use it for the elevations for CD's.

Like you I already have my 2d CAD method which is more direct. And I will not bother to transition until there's a need or advantage. If I do need to make minor changes it IS many more steps to output in SU-LO. But I think this time lag lessens with getting your workflow to become second nature. I can relate to the processing lags for each step, especially in LO rendering, even with an 8 core Pro. I hope 2013 does indeed improve that. I know that the most recent SU-LO job I did would have been impossible before I got my (latest-highest build) MBP. So I hope the "under-the-hood" improvements show up in even more performance down the road. Just hoping.

But your spinning beach ball issues don't relate to my experience. If the file is reasonable in SU, it should be at least "doable" in LO.

arail1 · 3 Jun 2013, 17:25

@dave r said:

Francois, I will tell you that if you aren't establishing the views you want as scenes in SketchUp, you're probably wasting your time with LayOut. There is a proper work flow for this stuff.

If you have the time would you consider expanding on the comments above? I stumble around in Layout, using it mainly to format 3D output without annotations. I'm sure I'm not alone in needing some insight into a more productive workflow with the program.

sonder · 3 Jun 2013, 18:50

As stated above, you need to approach the use of Layout with an entirely different work flow than you would with traditional CAD programs. I only use SU and LO for all my work, and I can confirm that extremely detailed sets of drawings can be produced extremely fast. I am at my 9th set of detailed CD's in the past 12 months, to different building departments, with zero comments being issued. I attribute this to the level of detail I am able to provide. A level that is simply too cumbersome to provide in traditional CAD programs.

The slowness you are seeing, given the 8 core processor, is due to either a crappy video card in that MAC or more likely, you are trying to vector render and entire SU model.

You just need to take more time with it and figure out where the strengths lie.

frv · 3 Jun 2013, 19:03

I know about how to convert to 3D modeling and communicating on paper.
I am not looking for all that refinement in 2D at all.

Just a resonable workflow were elevations and some perspectives, maybe a "filled" crosssection with some basic dimensions tell the story of first tryouts of a design.

If this means going complete slowmotion, lets say 90% waiting for redraws and the occaisional input from my side I would go mad. That is how it feels now and to many others I assure you.

So we are doing something wrong. Not just a little here or there but a major step is not clear stalling even the easiests of tasks to a standstill.

I will go and see what it is. But its sure not Sketchup which to me is always fast enough.
Tx, really for the replies, very appreciated.
Francois

Dave R · 3 Jun 2013, 19:55

Francois, I don't know how many times I've written this on this forum in the last few weeks but render times with 2013 are so much shorter than in LO3 that I can render entire highly detailed models in only a few minutes. I'm not sitting waiting for the renders to complete like I was with LO3.

Arail, you should look at Sonder's videos showing how he works.

Krisidious · 3 Jun 2013, 20:22

Vector rendering perspective views on complex models still takes some time... but not nearly as much and should complete in a reasonable time... a few seconds? under a minute.

frv · 3 Jun 2013, 22:52

well.... I am not going to use Layout anyhow no matter how many times

ok, sorry, I could not help that, I was just distracted by these smilies. Who ever uses these critters. But its late and so ..

tx for the help so far. I am going to set my self up with something simple enough to test with.
If I hear you all right it should be working and in a productive way as well.

I think all has been said about my outcry here on Layout. It seems a matter some basic training. Lets see were I get with that.
Francois

bmike · 10 Jun 2013, 16:07

lots already said... but detailed drawings can be quick, and beautiful (IMHO) - like Sonder's work... and others.

Dave R · 10 Jun 2013, 16:13

[quote]...and beautiful (IMHO) ...[/url]

And yours, Mike. And yours.

I'll repeat myself. Anyone who claims LayOut is unusable just flat out hasn't bothered to learn how to use it.

bmike · 10 Jun 2013, 16:28

@dave r said:

@unknownuser said:

...and beautiful (IMHO) ...[/url]

And yours, Mike. And yours.

I'll repeat myself. Anyone who claims LayOut is unusable just flat out hasn't bothered to learn how to use it.

Thanks DaveR, taken with much respect from you!

There are others doing very very nice work...

Krisidious · 10 Jun 2013, 16:38

Yes Mike, those are some of the examples that made me first want to move over to Layout...