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    • sketch3d.deS Offline
      sketch3d.de
      last edited by

      @samyell said:

      I know newer doesn't always mean better, but people NEED to buy new machines or upgrade their existing ones to keep up with advances and improvements in OTHER software and it seems that sometimes when they do this SU is left wanting.

      I doubt that ACAD takes advantage of multiple CPU cores (besides rendering/tesselation) as well as I doubt that SU doesn't take any advantage of a faster CPU.

      But it's also true, that there seems to be a problem in SU with the user interface sometimes stalling whereas the hardware pretends to 'idle' at the same time. This behaviour surely needs to be analyzed by development (if not allready done) and reduced as far as possible resp. the interactive user interface of SU allows.

      @samyell said:

      Some clarity on what will improve performance is all that I am trying to get...

      there is no 'magic' configuration which will unveil the full performance of SU if only configured, raw CPU power (with one kernel) helps surely most = highly-clocked Xeon or Core i7.

      Norbert

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      • andybotA Offline
        andybot
        last edited by

        I tend to agree with Thomthom - I don't know of any major CAD or graphics app that uses multiple cores for its basic functionality - so I don't see that multi-core is any sort of answer, and a different argument than changing to a 64bit environment. However, the 64bit environment is Night and Day for the major apps. For example, my experience going from 32bit versions of ACAD and PS to 64bit versions was an enormous change in responsiveness and usability.

        Andy

        http://charlottesvillearchitecturalrendering.com/

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        • N Offline
          numerobis
          last edited by

          @andybot said:

          ...I don't know of any major CAD or graphics app that uses multiple cores for its basic functionality - so I don't see that multi-core is any sort of answer...

          From the Graphisoft page (http://www.archicadwiki.com/Multiprocessing)

          @unknownuser said:

          Is ArchiCAD multi-threaded?
          Until ArchiCAD 12, ArchiCAD was not multi-threaded as a whole. Now ArchiCAD takes advantage of multiple cores / processors in various computationally intensive areas such as:
          Generation of Sections and Elevations,
          3D generation, loading and saving,
          Drawing updates,
          Placing PDF files as drawing (visual feedback when positioning the drawing),
          LightWorks rendering ,
          File saving with data compressing option,
          Managing Autosave.

          And In addition, ArchiCAD takes better advantage of the graphics processor in your display adapter.

          How many cores can ArchiCAD use?
          ArchiCAD can use as many cores as you have, but do not expect double speed with twice as much cores. Since breaking down tasks to threads and keeping threads in sync takes time, more cores do not always speed up processes. In general, the longer a process takes, the more multiprocessing helps. It is definitely worthwhile to have a dual-core machine, and if you are working on large projects, 4 cores are even better. In some cases 8 cores are faster than 4 cores, but you will not see a difference as big as going from two to four.

          When will ArchiCAD be fully multi-threaded?
          The multithreading in ArchiCAD brings a dramatic increase in performance over previous versions, but ArchiCAD will not be a fully multi-threaded application at any time soon. This is partly because re-writing the ArchiCAD code to support multi-threading is a huge task, and there are areas where it would not cause a dramatic performance increase. Graphisoft continues to focus on those areas where multi-threading brings the most benefit to our users.

          Now you know one... πŸ˜‰

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          • andybotA Offline
            andybot
            last edited by

            Well, the last paragraph pretty much says what I said - it's the core functionality that isn't multi-threaded, and that's what understand TT has been saying too. There are just some linear/ serial processes that can't be easily multi-threaded. Sure, if LO can get multi-threaded for some operations, that would be great.

            http://charlottesvillearchitecturalrendering.com/

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            • jbacusJ Offline
              jbacus
              last edited by

              For further comparison, here is Autodesk's answer to questions about multi-threadedness in Revit:


              The following tools in Revit (all disciplines) take advantage of muliple processors and multiple core processors for calculations which increases the performance of the tool in Revit.

              Vector printing
              2D Vector Export such as DWG and DWF
              Rendering (4 Core Limitation lifted in Revit 2011)
              Wall Joins representation in plans and sections
              Element Loading. Loading elements into memory is multi-threaded, reducing view open times when elements are displayed for the first time in the session.
              Parallel computation of silhouette edges (outlines of a curved surfaces) in perspective 3D views. Engaged when opening views, changing view properties, and navigating the view and will be more noticeable as the number and complexity of curved surfaces increases.
              Translation of high level graphical representation of model elements and annotations into display lists optimized for given videocard. Engaged when opening views, changing view properties and will be more noticeable as the number and complexity of model elements increases.
              File Loading
              Point Cloud Data Overlay

              What you should notice in both these lists (from Graphisoft and from Autodesk) is that it isn't core modeling operations which are multithreaded. Instead, it is "rendering" kinds of processes and other peripheral operations which can be accelerated in this way. Multithreading just isn't a technological panacea for CAD applications.

              john
              .

              "...exaggerate the essential and leave the obvious unclear." --Vincent Van Gogh

              John Bacus
              jbacus@sketchup.com

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              • Dave RD Offline
                Dave R
                last edited by

                @John, πŸ‘

                Etaoin Shrdlu

                %

                (THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE)

                G28 X0.0 Y0.0 Z0.0

                M30

                %

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                • thomthomT Offline
                  thomthom
                  last edited by

                  What could be an interesting thread - and a useful one for the SketchUp team if spesific bottlenecks in SketchUp was described. Without the interference of speculating on how it'd be technically solved.

                  We had some items mentioned already here.

                  • Explode
                  • Save Operations
                  • Export (Particularly animation)

                  Building on that I would say that some of the bottlenecks for me is:

                  • Adding geometry to a context slows down in relationship to the amount of existing geometry. I guess this one really goes into the obvious - "more geometry! More!!" ... πŸ˜’

                  Thomas Thomassen β€” SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
                  List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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                  • andybotA Offline
                    andybot
                    last edited by

                    @jbacus said:

                    For further comparison, here is Autodesk's answer to questions about multi-threadedness in Revit:

                    ...

                    What you should notice in both these lists (from Graphisoft and from Autodesk) is that it isn't core modeling operations which are multithreaded. Instead, it is "rendering" kinds of processes and other peripheral operations which can be accelerated in this way. Multithreading just isn't a technological panacea for CAD applications.

                    john
                    .

                    good, so there's some general consensus on multi-threading. What about the original question about going to a 64bit environment?

                    Andy

                    http://charlottesvillearchitecturalrendering.com/

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                    • thomthomT Offline
                      thomthom
                      last edited by

                      @andybot said:

                      good, so there's some general consensus on multi-threading. What about the original question about going to a 64bit environment?

                      Google Product Forums

                      favicon

                      (productforums.google.com)

                      Thomas Thomassen β€” SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
                      List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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                      • N Offline
                        numerobis
                        last edited by

                        @jbacus said:

                        ... that it isn't core modeling operations which are multithreaded. Instead, it is "rendering" kinds of processes and other peripheral operations which can be accelerated in this way. Multithreading just isn't a technological panacea for CAD applications.

                        As i said before, even if it is not "core modeling operations" which are multithreaded, but "only" saving, exporting, exploding, etc. it would be a huge benefit in some cases... no need to have a multithreaded Line-tool.

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                        • jason_marantoJ Offline
                          jason_maranto
                          last edited by

                          @thomthom said:

                          Google Product Forums

                          favicon

                          (productforums.google.com)

                          That thread is interesting to me because it shows how much my opinions have changed in the 2+ years since I posted there. At that time I was very much in line with the 32-bit apologists, but if you read carefully you will see why:

                          1. I recognized there was a limited amount of development that the SketchUp team was capable of and I would rather they put their energy into other tools (UV unwrap tools to be specific).

                          2. At that time there was no rendering within SketchUps process by Maxwell, so everything that got rendered was outside of the SketchUp 32-bit limited process.

                          So why the complete change of attitude on my part in just 2 years?

                          1. The supposed excuse of "limited resources" for development imposed by Google has theoretically been eliminated -- if that is so then why not wish/ask for more.

                          2. It has become clear to me that my pet toolset (proper UV unwrap tools) will never be embraced by John -- If I have to live with such a limited modeling /texturing toolset inside SketchUp then I want it to be the most robust platform it can be.

                          3. The technology around SketchUp has changed dynamically in the meantime and SketchUp seems to be stuck in a rut -- at first I was prone to believe it was a limitation imposed on the team by Google, but with John's recent comments here it has become clear to me that it is actually him that is the roadblock.

                          How much have things changed for me in that time-frame? At that time none of my software (except Maxwell) took advantage of 64-bit -- now all of them do... and I see better performance from all of them because of it. Not only that but not a single one offered excuses as to why they wouldn't do it, they just did it, because it was the obvious way forward.

                          So I can only come to one of three conclusions, either:

                          1. SketchUp was made in such a way that the core is impossible to update to 64-bit, and all of this is simply a distraction from that fact (which seems to be the most likely possibility).

                          2. Trimble is not serious about SketchUp itself being a competitive "Pro" product, and they have handed down directives to focus the dev teams attentions elsewhere (like Google did, but with a different focus).

                          3. John Bacus is going to be the death of SketchUp, because he stubbornly refuses to get with the times (I doubt this, because he would be fired before long if this were true).

                          Best,
                          Jason.

                          I create video tutorial series about several 2D & 3D graphics programs.

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                          • A Offline
                            Aerilius
                            last edited by

                            @unknownuser said:

                            1. Trimble is not serious about SketchUp itself being a competitive "Pro" product

                            I wouldn't judge about that already now but would patiently look into the future. There hasn't yet been a "Trimble" release of SketchUp (at least no feature release), and we know that Trimble makes certain devices etc. and deals with different sorts of data than Google.

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                            • jason_marantoJ Offline
                              jason_maranto
                              last edited by

                              Oh, I was more or less content to "wait and see" -- however John has already announced via his posts (in this thread) that there will be no 64-bit SketchUp (Pro or otherwise). So there's no point in waiting to gripe, might as well express my displeasure now, so I'll be happy again by the time SketchUp 2013 (ugh) is released. πŸ˜‰

                              At this point, aside from some talk about Layout getting some much needed love, I've got nothing to look forward to -- since AEC specific tools mean squat to me.

                              Best,
                              Jason.

                              I create video tutorial series about several 2D & 3D graphics programs.

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                              • thomthomT Offline
                                thomthom
                                last edited by

                                How about improved API that helps third party developers create better products?

                                Thomas Thomassen β€” SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
                                List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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                                • jason_marantoJ Offline
                                  jason_maranto
                                  last edited by

                                  No doubt, but that just costs me more money since those features won't be built into SketchUp and most of the things I want/need are paid plugins...

                                  That's not to knock the plugin/3rd party people -- those people (including you) are the only thing which make SketchUp usable to me... so anything that makes your life easier I'm all for πŸ˜„

                                  However, it would be nice to be thrown a bone or two by SketchUp proper for a change.

                                  Best,
                                  Jason.

                                  I create video tutorial series about several 2D & 3D graphics programs.

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                                  • thomthomT Offline
                                    thomthom
                                    last edited by

                                    Eager eyes waiting for SketchUp 2013 πŸ˜„

                                    No pressure...

                                    Thomas Thomassen β€” SketchUp Monkey & Coding addict
                                    List of my plugins and link to the CookieWare fund

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                                    • M Offline
                                      megui96
                                      last edited by

                                      i agree 100% with jason

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                                      • holmes1977H Offline
                                        holmes1977
                                        last edited by

                                        @megui96 said:

                                        i agree 100% with jason

                                        I'll double that

                                        Exaggeration makes a dull story better.

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                                        • 3D Modeler3 Offline
                                          3D Modeler
                                          last edited by

                                          Hi Everyone.

                                          I have read many (but certainly not all) of the posts in this Thread but I still don't know what to conclude about SU and 64 bit processors.

                                          I am building a new PC this weekend and have ordered Win 7 Home 64 bit but didn't realize that there "might" be issues with SU and 64 bit.

                                          Are there serious issues I need to be aware of ?
                                          Has Google or Trimble produced a Patch or anything that will allow me to use SU with my new system ?
                                          What do I need to know ?
                                          Is there a particular/specific Setup that I need (like running in Vista or XP Mode) ?

                                          I'd appreciate any help with this issue BEFORE I run into any problems .... as I'm sure I'll have enough issues getting the new system up and running and other program installations.

                                          Respectfully,

                                          Chris aka SnowTiger

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                                          • Chris FullmerC Offline
                                            Chris Fullmer
                                            last edited by

                                            I don't think you'll run into any problems at all. That has been my experience. SU is a 32 bit program, and your 64 bit system will run it just fine in 32 bit mode. You won't even know its doing it. No special settings to change or anything. Specifically do not run it in some weird xp-mode compatibility or something.

                                            The discussion in the thread is about getting Trimble to release SU as a 64 bit software so it runs in native 64 bit mode. None of that will affect you being able to run SU.

                                            Perhaps the main thing you might run into that I've seen many people complain about is your video card. Make sure after you install windows that you run all updates. Then go get the most recent video card drivers from your card's website. Then make sure you have your OpenGL settings in SU configured - you want to use hardware acceleration for sure, and you probably want to use fast feedback if your card doesn't freak out when you turn it on.

                                            Good luck,

                                            Chris

                                            Lately you've been tan, suspicious for the winter.
                                            All my Plugins I've written

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