Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion
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[quote="zx10r_Gaz":3l82c2l7]
@unknownuser said:How do you manage to do everything in 2D? I can't imagine how one can efficiently visualise complex systems in only 2 dimensions. Having a 3D model helps me to find places where parts simply don't match, or can't possibly fit, or merely look awful. The part I really don't like about 2D only is that you can end up lying to yourself about the suitability of a design. Lying to a client is one thing but lying to yourself...
How do you manage to do everything in 2D? I can't imagine how one can efficiently visualise complex systems in only 2 dimensions. Having a 3D model helps me to find places where parts simply don't match, or can't possibly fit, or merely look awful. The part I really don't like about 2D only is that you can end up lying to yourself about the suitability of a design. Lying to a client is one thing but lying to yourself.... that's foolish.
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In the final analysis, Architecture is an Art. It transcends building, and speaks to our humanity. A design tool is just that, a tool. The great works of Architecture are not a function of our tools, but of human genius.
That we all approach the solution in different ways, is part of that genius. And, the variety of expressions is probably affected by the myriad of tools that we utilize.
It may be a mistake to expect any single software to do everyting well for everyone.
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@tim said:
@zx10r_gaz said:
@unknownuser said:
How do you manage to do everything in 2D? I can't imagine how one can efficiently visualise complex systems in only 2 dimensions. Having a 3D model helps me to find places where parts simply don't match, or can't possibly fit, or merely look awful. The part I really don't like about 2D only is that you can end up lying to yourself about the suitability of a design. Lying to a client is one thing but lying to yourself.... that's foolish.
Hello Tim,
You shouldn't be to concerned, I manage just fine in 2D. I am "Old School" and in my "pre CAD" days everything I done was done on a drawing board with good old pencil & paper. A lot of the modern wonders of this world where conceived pre computers never mind pre 3D CAD...
I can design and draught a "finished and presented" new build or extension a lot quicker in 2D than I can with SketchUp when you take into consideration the amount of detailing, sections and annotations I do. SketchUp or rather Layout is merely trying to emulate the finished result you or I get from AutoCAD. At the end of the day I have to supply Plan views, elevations views and sections, and at present SketchUp "or Layout" does not supply the speed and quality of detailing for me to use it as a serious replacement to AutoCAD. I only wish it did. $$$$
but I won't give up on it juHow do you manage to do everything in 2D? I can't imagine how one can efficiently visualise complex systems in only 2 dimensions. Having a 3D model helps me to find places where parts simply don't match, or can't possibly fit, or merely look awful. The part I really don't like about 2D only is that you can end up lying to yourself about the suitability of a design. Lying to a client is one thing but lying to yourself.... that's foolish.
Hello Tim,
You shouldn't be to concerned, I manage just fine in 2D. I am "Old School" and in my "pre CAD" days everything I done was done on a drawing board with good old pencil & paper. A lot of the modern wonders of this world where conceived pre computers never mind pre 3D CAD...
I can design and draught a "finished and presented" new build or extension a lot quicker in 2D than I can with SketchUp when you take into consideration the amount of detailing, sections and annotations I do. SketchUp or rather Layout is merely trying to emulate the finished result you or I get from AutoCAD. At the end of the day I have to supply Plan views, elevations views and sections, and at present SketchUp "or Layout" does not supply the speed and quality of detailing for me to use it as a serious replacement to AutoCAD. I only wish it did. $$$$
but I won't give up on it just yet...Gaz...
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@honoluludesktop said:
In the final analysis, Architecture is an Art. It transcends building, and speaks to our humanity. A design tool is just that, a tool. The great works of Architecture are not a function of our tools, but of human genius.
That we all approach the solution in different ways, is part of that genius. And, the variety of expressions is probably affected by the myriad of tools that we utilize.
It may be a mistake to expect any single software to do everyting well for everyone.
Vitruvius writes that architecture is neither theory, nor practice, but both. It is not Art alone; it has practicality and responsibility attached. Human invention resorts to a variety of inspirations to produce good buildings and good architecture- both of which are based on sound principles. Genius is far too subjective to be attributed to the success of architecture; just as looking to our tools alone may be too objective.
I agree, however, that a single software package is the answer. Not because a single software package can not address all issues, but because it can not address all personalities and temperaments- not to be confused with genius. -
Hi Troy, I see that I failed to distinguish between architecture, and Architecture
However, you did remind me that there are works of Architecture without Architects, thus not the result of genius:-)
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yes, i can't escape Architecture
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"a single software is the answer"
this is why it seems to me that Sketchup / Layout are the best of both options. in that they address a "single software" application as the "basic" tool, with the adaptive "genius" of the individuals to contribute to shaping "supportive adjunctive tools", depending upon what the individual designer needs, (I will shy away from the Architecture / architecture discussion)The SK/LO "solutions" of 3d modeling vs 2d drafting is kind of like when the chordless drill appeared on the job site. It was a helpful, and handy innovation on an existing tool, the drill, I remember when the "makita chordless drill ' was the defacto standard, but now there are all kinds suppliers and all kinds of attachments for that drill, and or the drill motor, and or the drill battery, to where there is a whole range of tool options, and a huge range of tasks can be accomplished.
This is where I wish Google would "embrace" the market needs and fund/ encourage/ support the full potential of innovative 3rd party initiatives....
dream on I guess. -
@zx10r_gaz said:
You shouldn't be to concerned, I manage just fine in 2D. I am "Old School" and in my "pre CAD" days everything I done was done on a drawing board with good old pencil & paper. A lot of the modern wonders of this world where conceived pre computers never mind pre 3D CAD...
Well, whatever works for you is what you should do. I was 'Old School' too in my youth; I did many courses on constructive geometry and how to work out the shortest distance between two tunnels in a mine from an assortment of projections etc. It was one of the reasons I became interested in CAD in the first place! It was certainly a major reason I moved into CAD research in the early 1980s. I designed and built several motorcycle frames with paper and pencil. I sure as hell wouldn't do it that way again!
@zx10r_gaz said:
I can design and draught a "finished and presented" new build or extension a lot quicker in 2D than I can with SketchUp when you take into consideration the amount of detailing, sections and annotations I do. SketchUp or rather Layout is merely trying to emulate the finished result you or I get from AutoCAD. At the end of the day I have to supply Plan views, elevations views and sections, and at present SketchUp "or Layout" does not supply the speed and quality of detailing for me to use it as a serious replacement to AutoCAD. I only wish it did. $$$$
but I won't give up on it just yet...Gaz...
As I say above - what works for you in your business works for you. Changing would be an interruption and you'd have to be very convinced that changing would pay off before you got hungry. So far I find using SU to build a good model is a valuable process since it makes sure I'm not deceiving myself about the geometry. Once you have a decent model it is really quite easy and fast to make all sorts of detail and section and plan views in the combination of SU and LO.
My latest example; taking all the SIP units that make up the roof of the house and laying them all flat to provide a set of dimensioned drawings to the manufacturer. Total time taken maybe 5 minutes. Similarly a quick check to find the area of all the drywall in order to ask a contractor for a guesstimate - less time than it took for him to drink his coffee. Can AutoCAD do it ? Probably, but I've never really used it and am never likely to since it would require using windows and paying a lot of money. Could you do it with pencil and paper? Of course - if one had an office full of young associate architects being paid peanuts as they strive for partnership.
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Okay, if lack of activity is a statement of inability for SU to be a full CD program, what do people suggest as one has a SU Model, where do you go with that to finish the CD's, construction notes, schedules etc. Do you go to a full blown program like vector works, archicad, Revit, Autocad?
I have become "entranced" by the 3d capabilities, but the building department wants only orthographic drawings, the job site, I feel, would like both, in color too! Changes happen and the interior gets refined and defined, I still want to be able to render...so need the 3d model...
which other "finishing" (document drafting) software works best with the "live" SU model? -
Hi I have the same problem with Construction Drawings.
A work around has been discribed in the a 3D basecamp video by Mitchel Stangl.
One problem he uses Autocad to produse the drawings for output.This works great for elevations and some palns.
One problem when using 3dclip to set up plan sections at different levels and building sections not all surfaces that is cut does not display the cut surface.If ther is a sulution to this I would apreciate the help.
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If you want to try the common SU to 2d autocad route, you don't really need autocad. Doublecad XT and Progecad Smart are free and both have a gui which is very similar to Autocad. Doublecad will actually open an SU model. But whether you use Autocad, Progecad, Doublecad, Vectorworks, Revit whatever..,none of them do it for you, so you do need to learn the 2d drawing,dimensioning and annotating functionality of the program.
If you don't want to learn these fairly simple cad skills which, in my experience are generally expected as an absolute minimum in the workplace, then stick with Layout. I like Layout a lot but I can't wait for Google to add the functions that Layout needs to compete with the paperspace tools that cad programs have. -
@unknownuser said:
The part I really don't like about 2D only is that you can end up lying to yourself about the suitability of a design. Lying to a client is one thing but lying to yourself.... that's foolish
I agree. The problem with working solely in 2d on a drawing board or in Autocad is that you only really see the design as a series of lines - outlines. So you are only really looking at the edges of the form, not the surfaces. But in reality it is the surfaces that are most apparent. I heard an architect say recently that she didn't like the way that cad users always say "I can look at a building and see it as a wireframe", because it suggests that we are not as consciously concerned with the surfaces that we are creating. I don't necessarily agree with her but I see her point.
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@linea said:
I like Layout a lot but I can't wait for Google to add the functions that Layout needs to compete with the paperspace tools that cad programs have.
I'd be interested to learn what those functions are; mostly I'm doing ok with Layout but having never used any of those other tools I don't know what I might be missing.
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I like the thread, thanks for ideas. I've been trying to convince my firm to work more with 3d, mainly SKP. We design theatres (AV, light, rigging, seats, etc.) I'm the office hero for sightline studies, but can't get them to use Sketchup much past that. It's all ACAD.
The main problem for me in LO is labeling and with SKP it's interoperability with ACAD. If I try to set things up in LO, we can't match office standards with labeling, dimension, etc. It has to be an EXACT height, dim style, lineweight, etc. so it's useless in project documents unless it meets those standards. I.E., it can't look different than ACAD docs.
If I try to switch to ACAD for labelling, then 3D DWG's views won't plot with proper lineweights in ACAD. (For some reason, Vector printing only works in wireframe and rastering looks HORRIBLE. I even worked with ACAD support on this.) If I export with 2D DWG;s and import them to ACAD, then it all turns to loose linework on layer 0 and no group or layer info. Very hard to edit later if need be and tedious to reset layers.
I've tried a million workarounds, but nothing quite fits (and this excludes the fact that no one else in the office really use 3d and they need to edit drawings too.) Anyone else with similar problems? Wish I could stay in ACAD too, but LO just isn't there. Any ideas appreciated, thanks for the great discussions.
PS Anyone know why the ADO exporter rezooms scene and messes up views when exporting DWG's? I've searched but can't find any help.
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Mus257
You can sort out some of your problems when it comes to layers. If you set up a layering convention is SU, when you export to dwg, the layers should be preserved when you open the dwg in Autocad. So as you build your SU model, if you adhere to a very tidy layering convention, once you are into cad it is is easy to change the lineweights. Well, it is easy but rather time consuming I must admit. If you are having problems with this in AutoCAD, try using Doublecad and just import the native SU file.
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@unknownuser said:
You can sort out some of your problems when it comes to layers.
The big problem lies in exporting to DWG. I lose the layer info if I do a 2D export. If I do a 3D export, then I can't plot 3D hidden as vector lines, only raster. Is there any way around that?
Thanks for the help.
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Ok 2 things you could do
When exporting to dwg do several exports with only one layer visible in each. Then import each one as a block in cad and assign to s different layer. This isn't a great workaround I know, but it should achieve what you want.
For hidden line views, export the perspective view as 2d graphic dwg. Open in CAD. This will look better if you fiddle with the lineweights once you are in cad.
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Many thanks for the reply, this is a great discussion forum.
I've been doing that, but it does take approximately forever. The ADO export doesn't work properly, so I have to each export separately. Then recoloring takes a while, and if anything changes....do it all again.
I did finally find the MVIEW command, which allows you to plot Hidden lines as vector prints. So you can use the normal plot styles, and it looks fine even on a 4'x3' sheet.
There are some tricky things with hidden lines showing up, but it's a better start.
Just wish Autodesk help could have clued me in a year ago when I asked their tech support....
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i really need to start using LO .. i saw some amazing works aorund here. . and thats all i want ,, the possibility to create floorplans , with datas and etc .. i dont want to work with ca dprograms anymore. . i want to do everything i can in skethup ,, i will take alook at older posts and sse wich kind of infos i can find that helps me !!!
Cograt to u guys !!!
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@phmeier said:
.. i dont want to work with ca dprograms anymore. . i want to do everything i can in skethup ,,
HEAR HERE!!!!!
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