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  • R Offline
    redinhawaii
    last edited by 5 Jun 2009, 20:59

    Is this concept DEAD?

    I really can see the value of designing, modeling and illustrating how things are to be built in 3d rather than 2d.

    I see the value in creating "live, linked" models that can be viewed, modified, "taken apart" and rendered via SketchUp / LayOut / Google Earth.
    And I see a lot of "missing links" to tie these concept to real world needs like working drawings, drawing documentation, building permit plans, details, door and window schedules, etc.

    I see the value in a "semi-open source" software app, like SU, where there are lots of independent developers working on unique, specific supportive plugins/applications that make the software, much more vibrant, and adaptive and alive.
    Initially I felt that SU could be / do that. Maybe now is just too early in the software application / development / intention.

    I tried to do working drawings, construction docs in SU/LO, lots of hours and ended up with a lot of frustrations and the realization that maybe I was trying to do something the hard way. Maybe I have a zebra at a horse race.

    I also don't see Google interested in supporting this concept/potential for SU/LO. In my searching I find only a few people actually doing working drawings/construction docs, and those that are doing them are only doing small scale projects, i.e. kitchen bath remodel in SU/LO.
    I am on a Mac, but it seems, that those I have talked to are doing what I need much more efficiently on software like Chief Architect.

    any insights or perspectives would be most appreciated.

    aloha
    red

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    • T Offline
      troyhome
      last edited by 5 Jun 2009, 21:24

      I would like to see more support for working drawings in LO. I am on a Mac, running XP in Bootcamp. I am about to begin a small renovation project and plan on using SU and LO exclusively. I will try and post my progress and maybe get some help/feedback that could be useful to others trying the same thing.

      IOviz.com
      SU Pro 2024 PC

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      • D Offline
        Dave R
        last edited by 6 Jun 2009, 18:05

        I don't think this concept is dead, Red.

        I'm still make construction and working drawings in Layout. I just finished one this morning in fact as well as another one yesterday. Here are some image exports from this morning's project. I realize this isn't the same as con docs for buildings.

        http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3557/3601296462_653323c3f5.jpg

        http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3373/3601296262_e81d6f1355.jpg

        And I made full size patterns for cutting out the hard parts.

        http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2472/3600484473_3e85650aa0.jpg

        Etaoin Shrdlu

        %

        (THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE)

        G28 X0.0 Y0.0 Z0.0

        M30

        %

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        • F Offline
          fionmacool
          last edited by 15 Jun 2009, 13:42

          Hello, Sorry I didn't check out this conversation earlier.

          I am a SketchUp fanatic, architect and registered Google SketchUp Trainer.

          I don't use CAD, but I use SketchUp to do all of my construction drawings. So far, I have carried out a commercial project worth roughly $1m, and a complicated house construction cost €0.5m without using CAD or any other type of software.

          Please check out this link to a video showing some of the work I have done http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jw-q409XZc

          Here is a link to some further images showing my working drawings along with random photos of the built projects: http://picasaweb.google.com/sketchupireland/ViewsionAspireArchitecturePortfolioDrawings02?feat=directlink

          We have a Google SketchUp ATC company called viewsion: http://www.viewsion.ie, and we have the world's first advanced training program for SketchUp users that shows how to create the type of drawings illustrated above. (I hope you don't mind the plug. It's the only one I'll submit here.)

          Please let us know what you think. We would love to get to the bottom of this debate about SketchUp because we think it is the ultimate future for this amazing software.

          Zere are still some architectes zat do not know ow to use ze SketchUp..... Zis is unbelievable....

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          • T Offline
            tim
            last edited by 18 Jun 2009, 02:04

            I've also used SUPro & LO to prepare drawings for several projects including furniture, engineering parts and even my new house. I'm sure there are parts of the work that more expensive software can do better (sections and detail views come to mind) but having looked a few other packages I really can't say I like the UIs.

            It would be nice if SU did the equivalent of the 'Add Section-Cut Face' plugin automatically as cuts happened. It would be nice to be able to set a suitable pattern for the cut-face to show the materials. I guess it would be nice if SU actually behaved as a solid modeller when you have a solid item.

            It would be nice if LO could do the dimensioning and if the labels and texts in LO could attach to locations in the SU model so that altering the view didn't mess up the placement of said labels and texts.

            But despite the above I managed to produce a precisely drawn model of a house, make dimensioned views of it, provide a variety of sectional views, several detail sub-views, annotate it all, put it together and build myself a pretty comprehensive set of plans. I'd provide a copy for perusal if I could find a way to persuade this damn forum to accept my file....

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            • C Offline
              chrisglasier
              last edited by 18 Jun 2009, 04:20

              @unknownuser said:

              How to generate a complete set of graphical information needed for building from a Sketchup model

              Not the only way of course but have any of you (apart from Red who I know has) considered what is put forward in this topic?

              I would be very interested in your views.

              My regards

              Chris

              With TBA interfaces we can analyse what is to be achieved so that IT can help with automation to achieve it.

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              • GaieusG Offline
                Gaieus
                last edited by 18 Jun 2009, 13:34

                @tim said:

                I'd provide a copy for perusal if I could find a way to persuade this damn forum to accept my file...

                What's the problem with the forum and the file? (**.layout* IS an allowed file format)

                Gai...

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                • T Offline
                  tim
                  last edited by 20 Jun 2009, 04:32

                  Ashling Rd Layout.pdf
                  @gaieus said:

                  @tim said:

                  I'd provide a copy for perusal if I could find a way to persuade this damn forum to accept my file...

                  What's the problem with the forum and the file? (**.layout* IS an allowed file format)

                  I simply can't get the file (a pdf in this case) to upload. I can choose the file, I press the 'add the file' button and..... wait....wait.....wait.....wait.... give up after an hour or so. Of course, if I try now it will work immediately, so here goes -Ashling Rd Layout.pdf
                  Yup. Of course.

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                  • C Offline
                    chrisglasier
                    last edited by 20 Jun 2009, 05:05

                    @tim said:

                    if I try now it will work immediately, so here goes

                    Such is life! But now we can see the file, I would find it useful to know what difference Layout makes to what I see as a pretty straightforward set of SU views (title blocks aside)?

                    Thanks

                    Chris

                    With TBA interfaces we can analyse what is to be achieved so that IT can help with automation to achieve it.

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                    • T Offline
                      troyhome
                      last edited by 21 Jun 2009, 02:14

                      Tim,
                      These could not have been easy to make. What would you do differently next time? what gave you the most challenge?

                      IOviz.com
                      SU Pro 2024 PC

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                      • T Offline
                        tim
                        last edited by 21 Jun 2009, 03:31

                        What difference does LO make ?

                        Well, it allows the detail views to be shown without having to see the whole model - see pages 9 & 10 for example.
                        It allows for annotations about details and labeling of parts of the views.
                        It allows for fitting several related views together on a page ready for printing. Can't do that from SU directly.
                        It produces a nicely organised PDF file I can share with my contractors or have printed full-size.
                        It allows generally understood markup for detail views - see page 9 upper right view where two details are called out and referred on the same page.

                        By and large most people wouldn't appreciate getting an SU file and the instruction 'open this and build a house from it'. This may change in the future but right now it is a treat to find contractors that even use email.

                        What would I do differently? Be more organised about layers and components from the start; I did fairly well and didn't have to mess around too much but I'm sure I could do better.

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                        • C Offline
                          chrisglasier
                          last edited by 21 Jun 2009, 03:50

                          Thanks Tim very useful. And I noted your points.

                          Chris

                          With TBA interfaces we can analyse what is to be achieved so that IT can help with automation to achieve it.

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                          • GaieusG Offline
                            Gaieus
                            last edited by 21 Jun 2009, 09:37

                            I made a "feature request" a while ago to enable creating and embedding 3D PDF version of the model (or its selected parts) into the PDF document. Imagine that you have these nice, detailed/labelled pages in LO that are practically "just" printable, 2D data but on certain pages you even allow a client to see the model in 3D and allow him/her to orbit/pan around.

                            This is possible with LO when you are using the presentation view but once you export into PDF, it "freezes" to that certain view and you cannot move around any more.

                            Another useful feature would be to allow LO users to embed flash videos (now also possible with PDF 9). This could go both into presentation as well as PDF export.

                            Of course, both features would be "lost" when you print the file on paper but as long as you are watching it on your computer, they would remain interactive.

                            Gai...

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                            • C Offline
                              chrisglasier
                              last edited by 21 Jun 2009, 11:45

                              @gaieus said:

                              Another useful feature would be to allow LO users to embed flash videos

                              How about a little electronic notebook for SU users to make videos (individual objects in each scene could be animated)?

                              Shot from the video that failed to upload

                              Inshala!

                              With TBA interfaces we can analyse what is to be achieved so that IT can help with automation to achieve it.

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                              • R Offline
                                redinhawaii
                                last edited by 21 Jun 2009, 21:28

                                Chris,
                                I was just thinking about this today,
                                why not an informed "animation" that can show not only how a building is to be built, but one that can be information rich, i.e. click on a component and there is a "nameset" link to it...
                                with the ability to add comments, input, feedback etc.
                                a "live building process".
                                much like warfare, the "plan is out the window as soon as the first bullet is fired, same I find in construction" (all be it a little less so, still there is job site scrambling, particularly with a involved creative owner, and or a tight budget.
                                aloha
                                red

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                                • T Offline
                                  tim
                                  last edited by 22 Jun 2009, 02:47

                                  @redinhawaii said:

                                  why not an informed "animation" that can show not only how a building is to be built, but one that can be information rich, i.e. click on a component and there is a "nameset" link to it...
                                  with the ability to add comments, input, feedback etc.

                                  Insofar as I understand it, dynamic components provide for some of this. You can add attributes that will be seen in the relevant dialogue, apparently including URLs. I've not had time to even attempt any DC work but it certainly sounds useful.

                                  One thing I am going to be trying in the next few days is making a build animation to show the stages of building the house since it isn't quite the usual sequence.

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                                  • zx10r_GazZ Offline
                                    zx10r_Gaz
                                    last edited by 22 Jun 2009, 19:12

                                    @fionmacool said:

                                    Hello, Sorry I didn't check out this conversation earlier.

                                    I am a SketchUp fanatic, architect and registered Google SketchUp Trainer.

                                    I don't use CAD, but I use SketchUp to do all of my construction drawings. So far, I have carried out a commercial project worth roughly $1m, and a complicated house construction cost €0.5m without using CAD or any other type of software.

                                    Please check out this link to a video showing some of the work I have done http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jw-q409XZc

                                    Here is a link to some further images showing my working drawings along with random photos of the built projects: http://picasaweb.google.com/sketchupireland/ViewsionAspireArchitecturePortfolioDrawings02?feat=directlink

                                    We have a Google SketchUp ATC company called viewsion: http://www.viewsion.ie, and we have the world's first advanced training program for SketchUp users that shows how to create the type of drawings illustrated above. (I hope you don't mind the plug. It's the only one I'll submit here.)

                                    Please let us know what you think. We would love to get to the bottom of this debate about SketchUp because we think it is the ultimate future for this amazing software.

                                    Hello Paul,

                                    I'm very very impressed by some of those images of final drawing that you have linked to. Where these created solely in SketchUp? I'm finding layout extremely frustrating/slow/basic??? Also the PDF export seems to create massive 26Mb files from a simple model. The only way I could find to create a (basic) A1 PDF of a model was to export as a jpg, and then print the jpg to a PDF printer I have installed. This got the same 26Mb Outlay PDF file down to 1.5Mb and both PDF files look exactly the same "poor" quality. (see attached PDF file, Hopefully!)

                                    I would love to use SketchUp as my everyday design/draft tool, but at the end of the day it's all about the end product and at present AutoCAD lets me do everything I need. I only ever design in 2D and only do 3D when a client has a fancy for it.

                                    But if all those drawings where created solely in SketchUp I would love to jump ship and learn more of your techniques and tips etc.

                                    Gaz...


                                    Bunk House - A1 - Rev-A.pdf

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                                    • SektaS Offline
                                      Sekta
                                      last edited by 23 Jun 2009, 22:34

                                      Hi all,

                                      I have been following this topic with great interest. The more I use LO the more I see potential to produce Detail design drawings.Still no where near the power of Revit but for my purposes where I simply need to produce a set of preliminary drawings that can be reasonably priced, its a godsend. Attached is a PDF of some half complete motel concept plans. Still experimenting with the scrapbook function but things are starting to come together.

                                      Stan


                                      Motel Concept Pricing Drawings.pdf

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                                      • T Offline
                                        tim
                                        last edited by 24 Jun 2009, 01:24

                                        [quote="zx10r_Gaz":3l82c2l7]
                                        @unknownuser said:

                                        How do you manage to do everything in 2D? I can't imagine how one can efficiently visualise complex systems in only 2 dimensions. Having a 3D model helps me to find places where parts simply don't match, or can't possibly fit, or merely look awful. The part I really don't like about 2D only is that you can end up lying to yourself about the suitability of a design. Lying to a client is one thing but lying to yourself...

                                        How do you manage to do everything in 2D? I can't imagine how one can efficiently visualise complex systems in only 2 dimensions. Having a 3D model helps me to find places where parts simply don't match, or can't possibly fit, or merely look awful. The part I really don't like about 2D only is that you can end up lying to yourself about the suitability of a design. Lying to a client is one thing but lying to yourself.... that's foolish.

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                                        • honoluludesktopH Offline
                                          honoluludesktop
                                          last edited by 24 Jun 2009, 09:32

                                          In the final analysis, Architecture is an Art. It transcends building, and speaks to our humanity. A design tool is just that, a tool. The great works of Architecture are not a function of our tools, but of human genius.

                                          That we all approach the solution in different ways, is part of that genius. And, the variety of expressions is probably affected by the myriad of tools that we utilize.

                                          It may be a mistake to expect any single software to do everyting well for everyone.

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