SketchUp 7 problems on Mac Pro

bigstick · 10 Dec 2008, 11:58

I have been having a number of problems with SU7 Pro ever since I installed it.

First of all there is the crashing and system lockups. Initially SU7 made my system fundamentally unstable. Periodically I would be orbiting a model and SU would just freeze. Not just a minor, oops-I'll-terminate-it-and-just-restart crash, a full-on system hang with the spinning beach ball of death.

The machine would not respond to any input at all, and needs to be physically powered off. Not good. Since I disabled the application launcher Quicksilver, things seem to be a lot better but I'm not sure we are out of the woods yet. I still get crashes, but locking up the system doesn't seem to happen any more.

The display update isn't good enough. It's slow, it's jerky, and screen refresh is appalling. I seriously had better performance under SU 4. I'm tempted to think that these problems are because of the NVidia 8800GT card installed, which sounds like it ought to be great. So far though, it's not. Works fine with Google Earth, but not with VectorWorks or Sketchp. There is an obvious answer to this and that is, "Google can't be responsible for dodgy hardware". Well, yes and no. It is true that supporting all cards for all architectures isn't feasible. But we are talking Apple, and their range of hardware is severely limited, handicapped even, compared with Windows. This is the highest spec graphics card for the highest-spec Mac, so really, it ought to work at least acceptably well, which IMO it doesn't.

The most pressing problem for me at the moment is the fact that I can't import Google Earth terrain. I really need this facility at the moment.
There are 2 problems. First of all when I use the "Get current view" button, the current terrain is inserted miles (I mean literally miles on the screen) away from the model. Fine, zoom in and move the model. Except that I can't. First of all, the imported Google Earth terrain is black, secondly, the way the clipping plane works with large models, means that you can't zoom in. I tried to search for these issues, and I found a tip which indicated that turning off 3D buildings would help. So far it hasn't. The clipping problem is the same with SU6.
So - I have a scene which has 2 tiny (but simple) blocks, one represents the terrain from GE, the other, the building. I can't move them much closer together because I can't zoom in without the model disappearing. Even if I could, I would have a black terrain anyway.

In, short, I'm not having a lot of fun with SketchUp 7 Pro at the moment, and it is proving to be an impediment, rather than the useful and reliable tool it has been for years.

Is anyone else having these problems, or do any of you have any utilities or workarounds which may help?

[Edit: and the problem with being unable to use this forum with Safari is still present. I can sign in, but when the page gets redirected, I get signed out again. This happens on both my Macs my laptop at home, and mac Pro in the office. Windows users can feel a little smug at this point. I have the latest top of the range Apple hardware and SketchUp doesn't work properly on it, and even accessing the forum isn't straightforward]

otb designworks · 10 Dec 2008, 13:12

Wow, sorry to hear you are having so many problems.

I, too, have an 8 core Pro with the 8800GT card.

I can't comment on the Google Earth side of things, as I have never messed around with that part of SU.

I have experienced none of the system crashes you describe. I regularly have 15 softwares running and, knock wood, never a problem.

I think I read somewhere that development for Quicksilver stopped at 10.4. I could easily be wrong, but I don't think there was a Leopard update. That would explain why things got better when you uninstalled it.

I agree with you whole heartedly that the display update pretty well sucks. I want to say that it is a touch better than 6, but no where near what I had been hoping for with this update. It is really sad how poorly SU deals with not even that many polygons. You really realize how pitiful it is when you spend a few hours messing around with 10 million polys in Z-brush and then go back into SU. I think this may be the Achilles heel of SU, as if it had been "easy"to fix, it would have happened a long time ago.

That is a very weird thing that you are having issues with the website and Safari. I have never had one issue. I use Safari exclusively. This makes me wonder if you have something not quite right with your particular machine. Have you tried booting through the DVD and then accessing the website? Maybe run a repair permissions? I use a software called YASU every week or so that does all the scheduled system maintenance, repairs permissions, etc. Maybe that is worth a shot. Maybe trash some preference files; and at least reset Safari.

Sorry I can't be of further help; good luck.

Gaieus · 10 Dec 2008, 13:28

Wow, Chuck, good that you mention GE at the beginning.

Sorry, Bigstick, as I am a PC user, I didn't even read through your entire post first because I was sure that with Mac/hardware stuff I will be of no help.

Now the case is: with the new geolocation tools, when you take a snapshot in a model (mind you it is always a template you use) that is already georeferenced, SU will not change the original geolocation, only adds your new one to it. So if you (smartly enough) set your template to be located somewhere in Wales where you live but then modeling something in a nearby town or even England, the original geolocation will remain in the origin and you will be put literally miles away (with all the problems of clipping and eventually your model floating in GE because of the curviness of the Earth).

So what you simply need not to forget before taking a snapshot is to turn georeferencing off (on a PC it is the mark at the bottom left that triggers the relevant model info window).

Now you can take that snapshot and it will be placed to the origin. Also, you can save your template without it being georeferenced if you wish.

Now we can debate whether this is a useful change or not - this is how it works now and that's it.

It MAY be useful when you are modeling nearby things (you can model a bunch of buildings in one model while taking the snapshots as zoomed in to the individual ones as required) within a reasonable range but of course annoying when running into it without knowing the reason.

Maybe there should be a limit of this "reasonable range" built in or at least a warning that you are already georeferenced. Hopefully it will be included into a next maintenance release.

Tim Danaher · 10 Dec 2008, 14:59

Bigstick --

Do you mean that you can't even switch between applications, and can't call up the 'Force Quit Apps' dialog? I can't even generate a crash report!

That's what I've been noticing lately, but I wasn't sure if it was SU.

I've got an 8-core Mac Pro, too.

BTW, I've got an ATi X1900XT, and I'm very pleased with the performance.

Also, why is all my text squashed into the LHS of this reply?

sketch3d.de · 10 Dec 2008, 17:04

@bigstick said:

This is the highest spec graphics card

isn't that the nVidia CAD series 'Quadro FX'?

the issues you are describing are related to the the OpenGL support/performance of the video drivers of the Mac OS.

Manufacturers of video cards are developing their own, optimized video drivers for the Windows platform since decades. It's obvious that the drivers developed by the maker of the operating system only might have some flaws especially in connection with a complex 3D graphics output (backface culling, intersections, shading, perspective, plane management etc.).

hth,
Norbert

@bigstick said:

Safari

Safari is/was known for a weak JavaScript support which may lead to the problems you have described, just switch to something capable instead. Sometimes old cookies might cause similar problems, delete it if existent and login again.

bigstick · 10 Dec 2008, 19:07

Thanks for the comments guys.

@kannonbal, I have exactly the same problems with Safari on my MacBook Pro at home and on my Mac Pro in the office. This indicates that either settings on both are screwed up, or that something doesn't work. If it's working for you, it's probably my settings. If you have Google Earth, could you possibly try to import terrain into SU7 please? There are instructions here http://sketchup.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=36241 .

@Gaius, thanks for the georeferencing tip. This probably explains some of my difficulties. I'll try again in the office tomorrow. I have no idea what is causing the imported terrain to be completely black though. Previously on XP with SU6, this has worked really well. Perhaps this is an issue related to the NVidia card.

@Tim, yup can't even force quit, and the Mac equivalent of the 3-fingered-salute doesn't work either. In fact the only solution is the power button. Or probably a big hammer.

@Sketch3d.de, Ah, didn't realize there was a Quadro card available too. Imperfect OpenGl support would make sense. The really stupid thing is that actually I have 2 graphics cards in my machine, An ATI and the NVidia. I upgraded my machine from the standard spec, but because the basic one comes with the ATI card, the resellers left it in. It's just disabled. I am tempted to enable this one, and forget about the troublesome NVidia one. Question is, why haven't Apple or Google fixed this? It's not like it's an obscure card, and it's not like there is a huge variety to support as far as the current range is concerned at least.
Regarding Safari, I have Firefox as well (which is what I'm using now) but for some things it isn't as good. I wanted to standardise on a single browser but that doesn't look possible for the moment. The new version of Safari (v4) is reportedly massively faster.

Is there anyone out there with a Mac (preferably with the Nvidia card) that is able to place SU Models in GE? At least I can find out if my black terrain is an isolated issue.

CraigD · 11 Dec 2008, 00:13

What are you openGL settings?

 - CraigD

otb designworks · 11 Dec 2008, 02:59

Importing terrain worked perfectly for me, just now.

Following the instructions from the link you gave me and the reference image came in right at the origin, in the expected black and white, with two new layers in the layers browser.

I, too, have Safari running on a Macbook Pro at home, and it, too, runs this site perfectly.

I am starting to wonder if you did, in fact, get a bit of a lemon? I really hate to say it; I mean I really do, since I would hate to hear it myself, but things really are working fine for me.

That said, I have been working on a 160,000 face model right now and the performance is terrible. it takes 4 seconds to select something, it rotates and pans poorly, and is almost unusable when trying to orbit while moving a selected copy of a portion of geometry. This is the first big model I have had in SU7 and it is pretty depressing.

Super super pleased that they fixed the Mac animation exports, though! Very relieved to see that. So, it ain't all bad...

As Craig was intimating, I believe that Hardware Acceleration should be on and Fast Feedback should be off.

At least, that's what used to be the "proper" way to set it up.

Good Luck!

Gaieus · 11 Dec 2008, 09:17

@bigstick said:

...I have no idea what is causing the imported terrain to be completely black though. Previously on XP with SU6, this has worked really well. Perhaps this is an issue related to the NVidia card...

I could imagine that it is also caused by the very large distance from the origin. This is also an OpenGL issue - quite independent from SU itself - and so far away different, really weird things can happen (even geomery distorting and such).

Like in outer space

Edson · 11 Dec 2008, 10:36

i am sorry about your troubles, jim. i have not experienced any since i upgraded to SU7, although i have not imported any terrain since then.

sketch3d.de · 11 Dec 2008, 10:39

@unknownuser said:

...only 960 mb of ram... Celeron(R) 3.20 GHz... no video card at all it shares the 960.

surely no recommendation for OGL based 3D CAx applications as e.g. SU, at least for high-poly models.

thanks,
Norbert

sketch3d.de · 11 Dec 2008, 10:39

@bigstick said:

@Sketch3d.de, Imperfect OpenGl support would make sense.

you can evaluate by yourself by simply disabling the hardware acceleration (= OpenGL) in SU settings. If problems are vanished then, the OGL support of the driver is causing the probs.

You might also check if there is an anti aliasing configuration somewhere in the graphics settings of OSX. If yes, try if decreasing to 2x or 0x helps, at least for a speed improvement.

and run the Apple updater for ensuring to have the latest driver version.

@bigstick said:

... Question is, why haven't Apple or Google fixed this?

must be done by the makers of the video driver (i.e. Apple), what is not that easy (see above) and surely needs some experience in this area. Implementing workarounds in the application (as e.g. option "inverse picking driver bug") appears to me as a second good choice for fixing issues caused by the underlying operating system.

hth,
Norbert

P.S.: try if deleting the SCF cookie from inside Safari does the trick.

ScottPara · 11 Dec 2008, 14:13

Bigstick,

I am also running an 8 core MACpro and having no issues after the upgrade to 7. I do not use GE so I can not help you there. Hope you get this fixed.

Scott

bigstick · 12 Dec 2008, 12:08

Actually my MacBook Pro seems to be better than my Mac Pro, which is just weird. I have tried all the various combinations of hardware acceleration with and without fast feedback and maximum texture size. However, I have unchecked the 'fast feedback' option and terrain import now works. Obviously I wasn't being rigourous enough in my checking of the options before, and not trying the import terrain on a new file with the option unchecked. With Gaieus's advice about georeferencing, all is seems to be well regarding GE integration. Thanks Gaieus and CraigD!

Regarding OpenGL, I always have the updater running and the latest versions are always installed. Actually I suspect this might be a bit stupid, because I suffer from all the glitches that each new update introduces. I really do think that part of the problem is with the NVidia OpenGL implementation. I am having the problem with slow screen refresh and update that kanonbal has though.

@modelhead, you really can't compare a cheap PC and a Mac. And to claim that because you aren't having any problems with your cheap system, it may be in some respects better is misleading. I accept that the comment was probably tongue-in-cheek, but I don't remotely want to get into the whole Windows v Apple flame war thing. It is true that I am having problems with some things, but it's maybe a step too far to suggest that I have a 'lemon'. It's possible, but there are lots of variables, including the fact that I am logged on to a Windows 2003 server active domain. I work directly off the server, and problems with server traffic and the domain, affect me directly. Unlikely that these are causing the display lags though.

garydorn · 17 Dec 2008, 01:32

@unknownuser said:

@bigstick said:

I have been having a number of problems with SU7 Pro ever since I installed it.

The most pressing problem for me at the moment is the fact that I can't import Google Earth terrain. I really need this facility at the moment.
There are 2 problems. First of all, the imported Google Earth terrain is black,
<snip> Even if I could, I would have a black terrain anyway.

Is anyone else having these problems, or do any of you have any utilities or workarounds which may help?

Howdy
A little while ago I had the black picture import when I was working on a 100 acre property. To get a reasonable image I thought I would max out the window on my 23" screen.
Anyway I worked out that my image was too big,
So In GE Under View>viewsize>computerplayback>800x 600 try that, it worked for me

MacPro 2.66 Mac OS 10.5.4, 5 GB ram, 23" & 20" screens

Double Espresso · 17 Dec 2008, 03:05

[quote="bigstick"]
Regarding OpenGL, I always have the updater running and the latest versions are always installed. Actually I suspect this might be a bit stupid, because I suffer from all the glitches that each new update introduces. I really do think that part of the problem is with the NVidia OpenGL implementation. I am having the problem with slow screen refresh and update that kanonbal has though.

I used to allow MAC auto updates, but I got fed up with having to re-jig a lot of progs the next morning. Now I just check update every week and choose what I need. As far as SU7 goes I'm running a couple of MacBook Pros and they are rockin'.
DE.

sketch3d.de · 17 Dec 2008, 10:06

@bigstick said:

Regarding OpenGL, I always have the updater running and the latest versions are always installed. Actually I suspect this might be a bit stupid, because I suffer from all the glitches that each new update introduces.

...and profit from all the fixes every new update incorporates.

never changing a running system is not a bad idea but will obviously cut you off from every further improvement and problem correction.

@bigstick said:

I really do think that part of the problem is with the NVidia OpenGL implementation.

just to clarify, Apples OGL implementation for the nVidia GeForce home user series...

hth,
Norbert

sketch3d.de · 17 Dec 2008, 10:07

@sketch3d.de said:

...cut you off from every further improvement and problem correction.

e.g. recent OSX v10.5.6:
"Includes fixes for possible graphics distortion issues with certain ATI graphics cards."

hth,
Norbert

bigstick · 17 Dec 2008, 14:26

I have just updated to the latest OSX 10.5.6 and yup, the graphics problems are still in evidence.
I have done a little research and found that the problem does indeed seem to be related to the NVidia 8800GT in the Mac Pro.
I am getting awful problems in VectorWorks 2009 as well. On the VW forum, guess what, others with the same card are having the same problems. These are similar to those in SU. Slow screen refresh and incomplete update, jerky performance. All in all, pretty crap really.

So, I have started a thread on the Apple support forum here:- http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1829118&stqc=true

Please post if you are having the same problems.

sketch3d.de · 17 Dec 2008, 14:40

@bigstick said:

I have just updated to the latest OSX 10.5.6 and yup, the graphics problems are still in evidence.

heard this too, but for ATI Radeons...

Norbert