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    Do humans have a free will?

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    • C Offline
      cornel
      last edited by

      Remus wrote
      (about our “free will”):
      “Id like to think we have, but we dont know, and as far as i can tell there is no way of knowing.”

      There is a way (a “mirror”) – The Word of God:
      “They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.” (2 Peter 2:19)

      “Whatever”: …evil thoughts, theft, murder, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, adultery, sexual immorality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness, etc….

      Cornel

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      • DanielD Offline
        Daniel
        last edited by

        For the most part, yes we have freedom of choice, limited by our means and environment. However, when looking at history, I cannot help thinking there have been some individuals whose destiny was predetermined. Also, if one believes in the Bible, then there are times when someone's actions are affected by Divine intervention.

        My avatar is an anachronism.

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        • soloS Offline
          solo
          last edited by

          Because this is an extension of my religion thread I believe the question is a great one and one I used to ask when I was young without an answer I was comfortable with.

          I remember as a kid at Sunday school being taught that God knows everything, he knows what you are going to do, decisions you are going to make and he knows how your life is going to end. Well that was my question that I could not get a clear answer on, if he knows all this and knows if indeed I am going to join his team or not before I was even born ... what was the point?
          It takes us back to why the heck are we here in the first place if indeed this is the case, why bother with this charade if he knows how it will ultimately end?

          No matter how much free will I have do make my decisions and mistakes in life, according to my Sunday school teachings he knew I'd do it before I was even born ... like watching a movie that you have read the book of, you know how it will end so it's really just the interpretation and acting thats entertaining.
          Another question I had as a kid was when an infant dies they are said to go straight to heaven, now if God knew that was going to happen and as the religious instructors say that the baby was innocent and free of sin, was this to get more angels or test the parents?

          Fortunately I made the decision to not buy into all the religion crap and live my life with absolute free will.

          http://www.solos-art.com

          If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.

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          • plot-parisP Offline
            plot-paris
            last edited by

            interesting thoughts, solo. I ran into this wall of rigidity in church classes too; not exactly with the "god knows everything" thing, but pretty much the same way. that was, of course, what drove me away from christian religion.

            but to use this idea of god being able to look behind any decision you make. that god knows what you are going to do is a bit extreme of course. but an immensely intelligent being may be able to forecast one's actions more accurately than we like.

            that means, that most of our decisions are the logical solution of an equation. this deciding process is immensely complex and affected by everything we experienced throughout our life. therefore god (or the incredibly intelligent being) is able to quite precisely calculate our decisions. the only thing that he can't calculate is the small random function, deep down somewhere in our subconscious (if such a thing exists)

            so for the time being (it may change throughout this discussion) my conclusion is:

            we humans don't have an unlimited free will - but free enough!

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            • DanielD Offline
              Daniel
              last edited by

              My religious experience was different; God is all knowing (He knows what is our hearts), but doesn't know what actions we are going to take. it is up to us to determine whether we are going to sin or not, whether we choose right or wrong. How can you have the concepts of responsibility, right and wrong (sin), guilt or innocence, without freedom of choice?

              My avatar is an anachronism.

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              • david_hD Offline
                david_h
                last edited by

                I have purposely avoided these discussions because they tend to get rather rancorous or at the least it is very difficult to explain (for me anyway) a belief system, the beliefs that I have and I cherish in this kind of a forum. But when this question was posed, I couldn't resist chiming in a bit. I love to clown around with you --my friends--on this web site forum (now I am sounding like McCain 😒 ) but seriously. . .I would love for you all to know about my faith and my beliefs. Please look at this link here and hopefully you will get a taste of what is important to me. I know it's true and I love it.

                Why Am I Here?

                If I make it look easy...It is probably easy

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                • P Offline
                  PeterCharles
                  last edited by

                  Of course I do, just as long as I agree with 'er indoors!

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                  • DanielD Offline
                    Daniel
                    last edited by

                    Only indoors, Peter?

                    My avatar is an anachronism.

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                    • StinkieS Offline
                      Stinkie
                      last edited by

                      @remus said:

                      Id like to think we have, but we dont know, and as far as i can tell there is no way of knowing.

                      I guess I'm with Remus. Though I must add that, until now, I haven't given this question much thought.

                      It's an appealling concept, all in all, having no free will.

                      "You have been visiting p*rn sites again!"

                      "I had no choice, honey."

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                      • Mike LuceyM Offline
                        Mike Lucey
                        last edited by

                        I wonder! Are we not all 'pre-wired / programmed' in our genes,
                        to work a certain way OVERALL!

                        Do animals have free will? I think its generally considered
                        that they don't as they fall into the above category. Are we
                        not animals also?

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                        • R Offline
                          remus
                          last edited by

                          We are affected by our environment and upbringing though, so our free will can not be entirely 'pre programmed.'

                          http://remusrendering.wordpress.com/

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                          • C Offline
                            cornel
                            last edited by

                            We aren’t predestinated.., we are only created, 'educated' and 'disciplined’ by God!

                            “God knows everything”, He knows what is the best for us…, not only what is good…:
                            “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” (Romans 12:2)
                            Because of that, apostle Paul decided to ‘walk’ w/ God, like Enoch:
                            “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” (Philippians 1:21)
                            …or
                            “… It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20)

                            Consequence: God knows our needs and,
                            “… it is God who works in you, both to will and to work …” (Philippians 2:13)
                            ”And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.” (1 Corinthians 1:30”)
                            Those are attributes of true freedom…!

                            Cornel

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                            • CraigDC Offline
                              CraigD
                              last edited by

                              Humans DO have free will!! ...I was told to say that 😉

                              Google SketchUp

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                              • soloS Offline
                                solo
                                last edited by

                                Cornel, you make absolutely no sense!

                                Answer the question with your words, all this cryptic pasting in various fonts and colors is distracting, almost as if you are shouting or preaching (the same thing in some churches)

                                http://www.solos-art.com

                                If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.

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                                • Mike LuceyM Offline
                                  Mike Lucey
                                  last edited by

                                  Could Cornel be looked on as a good example of what I suggest
                                  might be the case?

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                                  • soloS Offline
                                    solo
                                    last edited by

                                    ”…and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

                                    A good defense lawyer will do the same.

                                    http://www.solos-art.com

                                    If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.

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                                    • C Offline
                                      cornel
                                      last edited by

                                      CraigD,
                                      re. your "Humans DO have free will!!"

                                      There are a few conditions…

                                      See an example!:
                                      ”…and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free[.” (John 8:32)

                                      Cornel

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                                      • W Offline
                                        watkins
                                        last edited by

                                        Dear Mike,

                                        I'm partly with you on this one, but I believe that our early experiences have a lot to do with how we are. Yes, genetics plays its part, the most obvious being that of appearance: if you are physically attractive then your chances of a successful life are enhanced because society as a whole will favour you. What happens to you in the womb and at birth can also affect your capacity to learn and retain information. Someone who is quick on the uptake is more likely to make it in the world. However, these advantages can be negated by overbearing parents who rob their children of self confidence, and by bad teachers who fail to inspire their pupils. I believe in free will, and I do not think we are hard-wired at birth. The cross-linking happens gradually as we grow up, and that is, to large measure, down to luck. Do you feel lucky?

                                        Regards,
                                        Bob

                                        PS Please note that I left out the word 'punk' in the last sentence, but it was very tempting.

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                                        • Mike LuceyM Offline
                                          Mike Lucey
                                          last edited by

                                          Quoting from the Bible is all very fine but is the Bible the
                                          'word' of God (The Christian one)or is it a copy of a copy of
                                          a copy etc. There is quite strong evidence that this is the
                                          case with recent finds in the Middle East! The Roman Catholic
                                          Church would appear to have omitted quite a lot of the original
                                          text as it did not suit their ends. This however is not what
                                          we are talking about here.

                                          Support us so we can support you! Upgrade to Premium Membership!

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                                          • V Offline
                                            Voder Vocoder
                                            last edited by

                                            @daniel said:

                                            For the most part, yes we have freedom of choice, limited by our means and environment. However, when looking at history, I cannot help thinking there have been some individuals whose destiny was predetermined. Also, if one believes in the Bible, then there are times when someone's actions are affected by Divine intervention.

                                            That's what I call covering all the bases.

                                            ~Voder

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