Prices
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Hi everyone! I have read Carlsen's topic (http://www.sketchucation.com/forums/scf/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=12144) and i have a similar case.
I'm going to start working for an architecture study in Spain making renders and all kind of visualizations for them. I have no idea of how much do i have to earn for each render.I usually work for about 5- 10 hours on a Sketchup model and another 1-5 hours rendering in Maxwell.
For example:
Many thanks to everyone for your help!
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I think the most widely used method is to charge per hour, excluding the time that the render spends cooking. What to charge per hour is up to you, although id suggest working out how much you need to make in a year to survive, how much profit youd like to make and then how much you need to make to meet that target.
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Thanks for your response, remus. But for example, if i work 10 hours and i want to sell that render...
(10 hours) X (10€/hour)= 100€
Am I being ambicious?
or are they stoling me money?
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Dear Ibon,
What are your professional qualifications and/or experience? If you are a freelance modeller/illustrator with a few years experience then I would suggest 1 to 2 percent of your gross annual income per day as a minimum. So, if you earn (or have earned) 30,000 Euros per annum, then between 300 and 600 Euros a day. For an 8 hour day that translates (approximately) into between 40 and 80 Euros an hour. Engineering consultants typically charge twice this and more.
A wise old bird once told me "watch their eyes". Start with the lower figure when quoting (anywhere between A and B, depending on the complexity) and if they don't blink double it. Job complexity varies, and so should your prices, and your clients should be made to understand that.
One last point. I have always found that if you value yourself then others will value you too. If you mark your prices down for fear of losing work, then potential clients will mark you abilities down. A case of "he cannot be any good if he is so cheap".
Be fearless! Hold out for a reasonable remuneration for your hard work.
Regards,
Bob -
Bob, while your advice is good I think 600 Euros + a day sounds incredibly optimistic. Visualisation is becoming a fairly general skill in the marketplace. A senior salaried architect in the UK may earn the equivalent of 300 Euros a day if he is very good. Rates in other parts of europe may be less, so I would be surprised if a visualiser will achieve the rates anyway near the above. If he can earn 25+ Euro per hour as a freelancer I think he will be doing well. If he has a studio that carries costs he may be able to do better but a lot of practices will go for a cheaper alternative.
When starting out it may be an alternative to build things up on the basis of working out what your basic expenses will be, add on top a little bit for the drinking budget, traveling, annual holiday and a little profit of 15% , divided by your estimated working working hours in the year to get to an hourly rate.(- And dont forget the Taxman!) Then once you have built up a relationship with the client after a couple of months you can negotiate a little more. Once you have a foundation with a few initial clients, it will allow you to price more aggressively when approached by new clients - which is where he can make some money.
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Dear Toxicvoxel,
Yes, you are probably right, but attitudes in Europe tend to favour the skilled and the qualified, and so my suggested upper limit is based on that assumption. I am surprised that you put the daily rate of a UK architect so low (around 250 UKP). A few years ago I got a quote from a local (Oxford) practice that put the hourly rate at 55 UKP, and most UK garages charge upwards of 45 UKP per hour for labour when repairing/servicing cars. Should a skilled modeller/illustrator be paid less?
I'm sure that we could debate this endlessly, but then, that would stop us getting on with something useful.
Kind regards,
Bob -
Before i say anything else, id like to say im by no means an expert in this, so its worth waiting for more opinons to be voiced before making any decisions.
Back on topic, 10 euro/hour would be crazy cheap. I get that working in a cafe (i.e. unskilled labour.) you should be charging a lot more than that.
Theres a good thread about it here: http://www.maxwellrender.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28328
edit: was a bit slow in posting this, but i tihnk its still relevant.
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It is very difficult to compare salaries in different countries until you don't compare prices and cost of living (as it always turn out in such threads). 10 euros per hour (at least if you have a constant job for that money) would be a great salary in my country while it is obviously not as great in Spain and definitely a low one in the UK where the cost of living is one of the highest in the EU.
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Good point csaba, i didnt think of that at all.
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Would you rather work for 10 Euro p/h and be busy or 30 Euro and irratic? (using the above mentioned currency as example)
Remus you mentioned that the price excludes the time the render is cooking, and I agree with you to a certain extent, however it is still occupying ones workspace, maybe even a productive machine that cannot be utilized due to resources needed to render, so what then?
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Obviously if letting the render cook is stopping you from working, and thus making money form other projects, then charge the time. But for the most part id say its a fairly simple process to leave a render cooking overnight (or several nights, if needed) and so avoid the client having to pay for unecesary time.
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Hello remus, watkins, toxicvoxel, Gaieus and solo.
Thanks for your answers and thanks for imply yourselves so much. I'm studying last years of architecture and so i have to pay school (a lot of money) and the rent (about 400€/month). I have been an sketchup teacher in an acadamy for some time, but i don't have any degree.Last year my school teacher ask me to work with him at his study, and i'm afraid he's going to pay me very little for very much hours of work. I know it has to be that way for now, but if i was wondering if i want to work for other studies in the future when i finish the career how much do i have to ask for my work (sorry for my english).
So i see that you know a lot about that, and now i am less lost thanks to you. I make a lot of renders for school, and it's good to know that maybe sometime i would earn some money for this kind of work that i love so much.
This is an example of work for school. It's part of a bigger project rendered with maxwell's multilight (15 hours cook). Thanks to you now i know that it's more expensive than 100€. Though it does not seem it's very important for me to know that, thanks again.
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If its any reassurance, id say your renders are as good as any, dont think you should give anyone a discount because your a student.
As for being underpaid by your lecturer, if its at all possible get another job. being underpaid is bad, even if it is by someone you know. That is asusming he does under pay you, of course.
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@remus said:
...excluding the time that the render spends cooking.
you have to think of that too:
besides blocking your machine for other usage leaving a machine running whole night at full power eats up a lot of electricity which you will find on your bill at the end of the year.in addition to that you have to invest money in powerful computers. to keep your equipment up to date to be capable of rendering you have to buy a new computer every 2-3 years.
you could of course give your model to a renderfarm and let them do the processing. in the end the client has to pay for the machine-labour as well.it's like renting a car - one has to pay for the time you are using it; and for the fuel of course...
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Bob,
@unknownuser said:
A few years ago I got a quote from a local (Oxford) practice that put the hourly rate at 55 UKP ...
I think you will find there is a big difference between what practices charge out staff hours to their clients, and what they pay staff or external contractors.
55 UKP will include costs and profit. Staff/contractors will earn less than half that, especially if they are new out of school.@unknownuser said:
... , and most UK garages charge upwards of 45 UKP per hour for labour when repairing/servicing cars. Should a skilled modeller/illustrator be paid less?
No, - but in practice they often are.
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One can also give the render cost as a separate item, if you are formally billing clients. I charge for large plots. It pays for the paper, ink, and machine in my mind and while still being income is not a part of my hourly fee.
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@unknownuser said:
... , and most UK garages charge upwards of 45 UKP per hour for labour when repairing/servicing cars. Should a skilled modeller/illustrator be paid less?
No, - but in practice they often are.[/quote]
Here is the crux of the issue. Are we seeing a bump in renderer types? I think Architecture and design in general is very "vertical" as careers go. You really start at the bottom. If you are special, a strong individualist who makes a splash, that is one thing. But for the most part it is underpaid at first for the amount of education most have. When you become a principal it begins to pay off.
Renderers seem to have been a more rarefied breed and they freelance or work in smaller consulting companies traditionally... the times when it was all done in watercolors. Many would make a decent living, and little more. Now perhaps we have a greater number of people ( many who would do well in another technical field) coming into that field by way of the computer, driven by accessible techniques, programs like Sketchup, the internet community, gaming, and a common trend of spending endless hours on computers. This is juxtaposed with the old days of the slower route of developing hand skills and a studio--not to denigrate the quality work being done.
Just considering the possibility there might be plenty of renderers moving into a field that is already used to cheap labor...and you can just send it to China, after all (not that I ever found that feasible).
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Plot, id argue that those are all general costs that should be incorporated in to your hourly rate, rather than charging it at a seperate rendering time rate. The majority of your electricity bill is going to be taken up through the day, and software and computer upgrading are also neccsities for everyday computer use, not just rendering.
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I guess the only thing I could add to this, and I am by no means an expert but--I have done a lot of Free-lancing as an illustrator --old-school hand drawn stuff. . .
guage where you are versus where the Competition is as far as your
a. experience
b. style
c. overhead
d. availability
e. dependability
I had to start out cheap knowing full well I was limited in my graphic style and my studio layout. . .copiers, workspace all that kind of crap.Build a clientele. I would imagine the work you will do as a newbie is for folks who will hire you becaue they don't want to spend a lot of money. Otherwise they always will go to the more experienced illustrators. Give them a good product. Be frank about your capabilities, which to me seem tremeendous, so build up a good portfolio of real experience work. You may be eating a lot of your firstcosts, but as you move up in clientele you can dump the cheap clients. If they keep after you, you simply tell them the rates have gone up. Relationships are just as important as rates, but rates feed the bulldog.
The thing about Computer rendering is a lot of folks are doing it. Everybody thinks they can do it. .. even I am doing it and that says something about how deluded Some folks can be. .so as you progress in experience develop a style that makes you unique and marketable and you will always have clients. The reason I stay so busy is cuz I still do hand drawing. A lot of folks still like the loosy goosy feel of the sketch. They don't pay the astro bucks but I do make a nice side living.
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Ibon
May I bring my experience to your question
- it depends if you have to model the building, or just copy and render. Modeling is a real creative job which have to be valued. Copying and rendering is far more simpler.
- as a student your job is an extra, and usually, you do not have to support costs of professionnal fees, taxes, car, building,computer costs, so you should be under normal costs.
For your information, a simple full creation for a small house, with administrative papers , plan, facade and enhace in the terrain, one rendering, is sold 1500 to 2000 euros taxes incl. here in France; your job would seem to me around 150€ per view; if I was to buy it I would ask for more environnement for that price.
Good luck
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