Lively by Google

bytor

Might I dare say this has been quite a "Lively" thread!

I have no interest in the online social experiments as such, but I can understand Google's move to address the up and coming young consumer generation. They can sell the advertising to those who don't hesitate, and in fact have a propensity to click. As a parent of 4 between 15 & 18 - I struggle with the amount of time they spend and their gravitation to being on-line. But the reality I have come to is that is how today's young crowd socializes. It infuriates me and amazes me all at the same time.

Now - to emphasize what was stated earlier - I truly hope that Google is watching and listening to us and does understand what an incredible design tool they have. I too have encountered the elitist snobs that stick their nose up at sketchup - architects, designers, and visualizers alike. But, when you meet someone that does use and approve - they are typically the type of individual that is truly excited about their work, and can not wait to show you and discuss what they are doing with SU. When an Architect or Interior Designer shuns such and intuitive design tool - I smile and think of how easy it just was for me to explore 4-5 design options and review them with a boss or peer, or better yet a client. Decisions get made and we move on, and can even produce final presentations / marketing materials before the "others" have even gotten out of the gate.

Google - please leave the current SU free for the "uber-consumer netizens" of tomorrowland. Develop PRO as a big brother application on a multi-core code base that remains open for all of the wonderfull RUBY minds that help to make SU sing! You know - the paying crowd!

Bytor

kwistenbiebel

@bytor said:

Google - please leave the current SU free for the "uber-consumer netizens" of tomorrowland. Develop PRO as a big brother application on a multi-core code base that remains open for all of the wonderfull RUBY minds that help to make SU sing! You know - the paying crowd!
Bytor

Well said!
In my opinion, the only development really needed is making SU Pro adapted to the new hardware (64 bit, multicore, large RAM). Go Google and make us proud.

gaganraj

I attended a well known design school on the west coast. I just spoke with a former instructor and they have implemented SU into the core curriculum. It truly is an amazing design tool. I find myself being not just more productive, but having a lot of FUN when using it. It is not just architects - designers in products, entertainment and graphics are also interested in the development of SU as a sophisticated but simple tool. If Google is listening they will be sensitive to the sentiments expressed on this board - I just don't understand why they are so secretive about development. It makes it seem like they are going to do with SU what they are going to do with it, regardless of how its true core users feel about it. Its funny, because even if Google manages to get an entire generation of young users, if they do not further develop the app, then its user base, as it matures, will pursue something else.

kwistenbiebel

I am not really excited about this...A virtual world concept sounded nice 5 years ago .
Right now it feels like an outdated concept.
Google seems so be over positive about web usage in my opinion.
When the new wears of, people end up just wanting efficiency and not some 'happy virtual world' ..unless you can make money out of it as Gaieus suggests.
I think making it a money game is Googles ultimate goal, just like Google maps will probably be integrated in the moneymaking 'Adword' concept. (pay per click on sponsored map links)

[Starting the music]:Now let us all sing the 'Google song'.... .

kwistenbiebel

@Google,
Perhaps consider going open source with the Sketchup Pro version.
At least in that way, there is still a chance of further development of our beloved tool.

The basic concept of Sketchup as a professional 3D tool is just too valuable to throw away.
It just needs to be developed further.
If you guys aren't planning to consider further Pro development, please open up the SU core to the community (or maybe to a 3td party developer?).

...or find another way not to leave Pro users out in the cold.

I am afraid that with the current way of things, Sketchup might end up being not as 'lively' as it was before.

plot-paris

@gaganraj said:

Its funny, because even if Google manages to get an entire generation of young users, if they do not further develop the app, then its user base, as it matures, will pursue something else.

exactly, gaganraj!
and what is better than having a whole bunch of people, who use your application excessivly and push it to it's limits, reporting to you every day, giving comments, criticism and loads of suggestions of how to improve your product?

the Google guys have the best development guide in front of their noses. lets hope they make use of it!

tomsdesk

@plot-paris said:

and what is better than having a whole bunch of people, who use your application excessivly and push it to it's limits, reporting to you every day, giving comments, criticism and loads of suggestions of how to improve your product?

the Google guys have the best development guide in front of their noses.

Which is why I can't understand the lack of reverse-feedback (respect)!

Chris Fullmer

@tomsdesk said:

Which is why I can't understand the lack of reverse-feedback (respect)!

huh? I'm not quite following that.

Pixero

Here is a quote I found at CgTalk:

@unknownuser said:

We are studying how to support user generated content. We would like to support two kinds of users: (1) artists and designers that are already competent with Max, Maya, SketchUp and other professional DCC tools and (2) average users who would like to model, paint and animate their own stuff. Its fairly short hop to #1 but there's a lot policy work and polishing to make it ready for public consumption.

Mark Young
Google UX Design

linea

kwistenbeibel wrote

@unknownuser said:

I think making it a money game is Googles ultimate goal, just like Google maps will probably be integrated in the moneymaking 'Adword' concept. (pay per click on sponsored map links)

I find Googles approach to money making, or what can be seen of it, very bizarre. They have made it virtually impossible for third party professionals or individuals to profit from Google Earth because of the slow upload process and restrictions on advertising. But it was those opportunities that made 2L so successful, so well populated and ultimately so profitable for Linden Labs. Surely the ultimate 3d world could be Google Earth but enthusiastic hobbyists alone are NEVER going to populate it to any degree. There aren't enough local governments (like Amsterdam) who will model their towns out of good will.

As for SU, Google have no idea how many design professionals use it because THEY ARE NOT BUYING IT!!! I bought it, but I've come across loads of architects and other designers who are pained to admit that they are using the free version but are still fronting their operation with other "more respectable" apps (I keep seeing that SU man walking a dog and responsibly holding a bag of poo in visuals for new developments). If you want to make money Skoogle-people sell your product.

I totally agree with Alan, The SU name should not have been appropriated for the free version. IMHO putting "Pro" after anything instantly makes it sound to be the exact opposite.

In my (all be it small) experience I think the old-school is beginning to see the light but they still act like SU is their dirty little secret. A few weeks ago a large architecture firm asked me if they could have part of a city model that I had done in SU for another practice (I'm not boasting here, the model wasn't anything special). I gladly gave them it but obviously the SU input will be invisible in their finished product - 3DS Viz.
I will say in Yorkshire at least, I hear of more and more firms proudly using SU Pro. Unfortunately I also still regularly hear "How can it be any good if it's free?" but there is no helping luddites like that.

What concerns me is that us little guys cannot afford (and shouldn't have to) front our operations with apps like 3DS Max. It will be a real loss if Google cannot realise SU's potential.
With the risk of sounding hypocritical after ranting about free and pro, I have to agree with Lewis, the open source route could be the only way to preserve any integrity.

kwistenbiebel

(....maybe Google could organise a second 'Google Summer Of Coding' and give Sketchup a place in it.)

lewiswadsworth

@pixero said:

Here is a quote I found at CgTalk:

@unknownuser said:

We are studying how to support user generated content. We would like to support two kinds of users: (1) artists and designers that are already competent with Max, Maya, SketchUp and other professional DCC tools and (2) average users who would like to model, paint and animate their own stuff. Its fairly short hop to #1 but there's a lot policy work and polishing to make it ready for public consumption.

Mark Young
Google UX Design

What the hell does that mean? I feel like I'm channeling Napoleon Dynamite: "Whaddya think, are they freakin' idiots?"

Oh, hey, it's KB who pushed Open Sourcing this. I asked about this a long time ago in the other forum, and they said, "Uh, no. We have patents in SketchUp and we want to hold on to them."

Open Source projects are nicebecause they are free, badbecause Open Source is a religious concept to many people and they are irrational about it...and finally really bad because FOSS projects rarely ever see concerted development and innovative feature addition (Mozilla apps and Ubuntu being likely exceptions). And Open Source projects tend to be run by strong-willed individuals who have their own vision for the apps and don't necessarily care about non-coding users. (And why should they? You're not paying them to do this!)

Come to think of it, that situation sounds very familiar.

Phil Rader AIA

Sketchup is just a tool what ever your "craft" is you must have an assortment of tools. How many of us here don't grab for the drill with a screwdriver bit to put in a drywall screw. Ofcourse I could use a regular manual screwdriver but the drill version does it so much faster. Now there are power drills and then there are monster super power drills costing thousands of dollars. If you own a construction company you may own a super power drill but even then sometimes a simple cordless drill will suffice and a good craftsman and business person will choose the appropriate tool for the task at hand.

anyway

Sketchup was, is, and always will be just a tool but put it in a teenagers hands and you would expect it to be used differently then if you put it in a 40 year old hands. The tool can and will need to be able to work for each and all in between.

Having said that if Google does not improve the tool for all users than those users will find another tool. The practice of architecture is only one small sector that Sketchup can be used for, and quite frankly even sketchup version 3 satisfied most of the architects user needs. the added features in SU6 from SU3 are numerous but the core stuff in 3 is what makes 6 still the appropriate tool. With the inclusion of ruby as a plugin - addon language SU has for all intents and purposes become open source. Much of the functionality extensions we all get excited about lately are not coming from Google they are third party. Sketchup is like that person who seems lost in the party with out a purpose kind of a lonely geek talented but uninteresting.....until he has a few beers and then all of a sudden he's the life of the party telling jokes and hitting on girls and making use of the extensive knowledge of politics and current events he has in his brain.

SO I see a long and illustrious future for sketchup but at some point its humble beginnings will be lost because out of the box it is essentially bland but when you add on the third party features available to it you can transform it into a powerful full featured set of tools.

Think about AutoCAD, 3dmax, maya, etc. They all had very limited but focused tool sets to begin with I think I still have a copy of version 1 of 3dsmax If memory serves me correctly the application was only 3mb large. I imagine its quite larger than that now. My point is that Autodesk bought out many of the third party applications that were created to extend the capabilities of the simplistic applications they had. Their users were telling them that. Autodesk fear was that one day the users would become addicted to this third party application plugin and then the developers of these plugins would be able to dictate thier own development course.

So I see Google doing the same thing with SU7 Emulate internally some of the features being developed by third party developers (Subdivide and smooth, FFD, Vray, Maxwell, Soap Skin, Podium, Etc. Etc. Etc. or if economic work out buy them and incorporate it in a pro version)

I seam to remember at some point AutoCAD was not very good at actually performing mundane and repetitious day to day drafting tasks that architects needed so along came a third party add-on called softdesk, and a competitor Kativ well Softdesk was bought out and AutoCAD architectural desktop was born.

Wow This is going on.

I for see a series of Google add-ons to SU pro to essentially create SU-Architect version SU-Animate version SU-Earth version SU-Lively version etc.

Essentially these industry specialized versions will incorporate tool sets that are specific to that industry.

So I would not worry if there is a version of Sketchup that is being used by teenagers to populate Lively because its only natural that they use SU for that purpose because its well suited for it. but in my SU-Architect version the same and other tools are well suited for my profession.

BTW I did visit Lively and apart from trying to have a conversation with a female avatar I found very little use for it.

Alan Fraser

@tomsdesk said:

Which is why I can't understand the lack of reverse-feedback (respect)!

I'm pretty sure that's Google company policy. I know that many Skooglers are virtually busting a gut to tell people what they are working on ...but they can't. If they were still masters of their own destiny, I'm pretty sure that feedback would be as it was in @Last days, but there's a price to be paid for acquisition; and SketchUp...whether people like it or not...now forms part of a bigger ball-game that presumably is felt to require a good deal more secrecy.
It's frustrating all round. There are a number of non-Google people who are aware of at least part of what is being developed, but they can't say anything either.
It's a rather awkward position. @Last was always aware that its forum was one of its biggest assets, but they had to fall in line with all the other bland Google sites; and put the best face on it that they could. I'm sure they look upon this one as a valuable resource too...which is why Lewis keeps seeing them logged on.

bytor

Phil,

I understand what you are saying regarding the "tool" analogy - and I think that is exactly why so many here are expressing concern. SU is a vital tool for most of us in our trade, hence the passionate responses. I think a lot of the concern is raised due to the lack of information Google is willing to provide for the PRO version's development and future plans. Their PR focus seems to be geared towards the GE and now Lively audiences. One could make an arguement that where SU is right now(v6 development)is more than sufficient to support these endeavors, as a bonus - throw in the Warehouse and the majority of it's content into that mix as well. Keep it all free and let Google make their money in the advertising possibilities within Lively. But - what do we do about the PRO users? The tool admittedly is showing some basic development limitations in file size / poly count, as wel as taking advantage of the current (multi-core) hardware capabilities. Beyond that - the ruby community is doing some incredible work with what SU6 has to offer.

Your reference of Autodesk and it's applications is appropriate as well, and that probably has more to do with the level of paranoia expressed here. I am a former user of both Lightscape (from before the autodesk buyout) and an SU like product - which I think was called Architectural Studio. Lightscape was a lighting design application that also was a fantastic radiosity renderer - killed after a few years and only 1 release cycle in Autodesk's hands. Most of what it did has been rolled into the former VIZ and now MAX, but there were some features and aspects that even the current generation of biased / unbiased renderers don't completely match. Arch Studio was out in the early days of SU and lasted only 1 or 2 release cycles - was very SU like (but in an Autocad friendly format) with similar capabilities to the layout tools right in the base functionality. One a great tool - one a good tool which had plenty of room to be developed. Both dead at the hands of a large corporation, supposedly due to the high development costs for a somewhat limited market.

Are we too paranoid? Probably, but given today's economy and market it is understandable. The design software industry doesn't do anything to quell these concerns either. Google is paying the price for what we all have come to expect from the other non-SU design applications. Yearly subsciptions with scheduled upgrades which constitute minor feature enhancements and bug fixes, sprinkled with a few new developments here and there.

I am officially not so paranoid now since I spent several hours last night watching a couple of the videos from the Basecamp sessions. If we all take a step back and view the situation from the perspective of what development has occured to SU in the form of ruby scripts since the release of v6 - things don't necessarily look so bad. If this business model works for Google and the pro version can continue development with the open framework that provides the ruby developers the opportunities to reach even higher - I am OK with that. Just give us the speed and power we need and allow for some seperation between the free and pro user communities!

Sorry to ramble so - Bytor

Phil Rader AIA

bytor

I agreee that large software companies like Autodesk have and will continue to buyout competing software and assimilate thier technology into their own in sometimes successful and sometimes not successful ways but always "FOR PROFIT". However Google does not have a software to Assimilate Sketchup into. Sketchup is the "big companies" technology. IE: Google will be looking to buy or develop Sketchup to make it all things to all people. I have no doubt that research into making SU into a more robust application capable of handling larger poly counts or multiple cores or 64 bit processors is happening. However the sheer numbers of people who do not need that out way the numbers of people that do so I assume it's not high on the list. I think the Pro versus Free debate is a red herring, it's a distraction that is not necessary. Google has a broader more profitable use for keeping their 3d content creation software free, but if that same software can become the little David that slays Goliath all the better. SU is already most likely in every architectural office in existence in one way shape or form. If not formally in use or sanctioned, it's probably in use by at least one of it's employees. Or at a very minimum the firm is aware of it and may at some day in the future use it. If you don't think that has Autodesk concerned you would most likely be wrong. I think I read or heard somewhere that someone was working on a 300mb sketchup file. I have worked on files approaching 100mb. Granted it's slow but with proper file management its possible. So I think we all just need to step back and take a look at the big picture. SU has literally changed all of our daily lives and altered how we perform our work, I agree it's vital but even if there were not one single change in the program I would probably never need to switch to something different to perform the same tasks that I use SU for now.

I do hope that SU7 comes out in beta soon and I hope that some of the upgrades have to do with the core funtionality improvements that architects have been asking for. Support for higher polygon counts, Support for multiple cpu's, Support for 64bit OS,.

But I will also be just as happy if it has minor upgrades and a few new bells and whistles, because in my opinion there is still not viable alternative out there for me.

Regards

Phil

kwistenbiebel

@unknownuser said:

... I have no doubt that research into making SU into a more robust application capable of handling larger poly counts or multiple cores or 64 bit processors is happening. However the sheer numbers of people who do not need that out way the numbers of people that do so I assume it's not high on the list.

I think if Google wants to expand its user base (Lively users, game designers, etc...), everybody would gain from having multicore/64 bit/high polycount support and not just the 'high end users'.
As an example, the ability to model characters for Lively would imply coping with higher poly counts (organic forms).
Besides, in 1 or 2 years all PC's sold will be 64 bit systems and multicore based.
It is not at all an extreme wish for software to support it. It is a reality every software maker should be aware of, especially in the 3D spectrum.

@unknownuser said:

I do hope that SU7 comes out in beta soon and I hope that some of the upgrades have to do with the core funtionality improvements that architects have been asking for. Support for higher polygon counts, Support for multiple cpu's, Support for 64bit OS,.

And again, not only architects.... But yeah, being one of those, it is something we need very badly.
I think if Google could work on that and at the same time improve sketchup as a platform (ruby or Python) for 3td party developers, for me Sketchup 7 would be a success.

rv1974

I just wonder (for general education): Is any 3d modeller uses multicore architecture now?

kwistenbiebel

@rv1974 said:

I just wonder (for general education): Is any 3d modeller uses multicore architecture now?

Most of them do, but not all of them have 64 bit versions .
I believe Rhino doesn't have a 64 bit version yet, but their code seems to be more optimised. (Rhino is not polygon based so not exactly comparable to Sketchup).
Both 3dsMax and C4D do have 64bit versions.

The reason why we talk about wanting to have 64 bit is that currently Sketchup has a serious speed and crash problem when working on big files.
Going 64 bit and multicore management could be useful methods to optimise its performance.

Sketchup is screaming to use more RAM memory for certain tasks than it can adress currently (a maximum of 2'pointsomething' Gb) and it can only put 1 PC core to its tasks, while some computers, like mine, have 8 cores that aren't used in a good manner.

kwistenbiebel

I just read that Google will be using its 'Adsense' concept in Lively.
This means 'in game' advertising.