Gaganraj, thanks for posting the final version of your visual. I think it’s extremely interesting to see how you have integrated and mixed the different techniques and programs. The result is really excellent. Your use of the photomatch technique makes complete sense to me, and you prove that it is very effective. Good to mention that you care about keeping some of the traditional media in the flow. Also very important, I agree. Am still hoping you’ll be able to post a view of the SU photomatch job from different angle….By the way, do you ever use “Vue” for landscaping?

Also agree with “not letting the software dictate the design”, which I think is true for any tool we use anyway, specially with digital tools. This being said, SU is quite good for that in a way, as you said yourself: “ I find using sketchup, that i draw less and less traditionally, and move into sketchup earlier in the process. (i guess that's why its called sketchup...).” That’s one of the reasons why I really enjoy working with SU, and with only a little more practice I now feel the same with Modo.

Regarding the “fundamental difference” between a PD/ AD and an illustrator that you referred to, I agree but I would add that perhaps it depends on a few things, for instance which stage of the designing we are at. In my opinion, it’s OK even necessary to free all the crazy ideas at the beginning. Then gradually it becomes crucial to focus on the constraints of reality, and at this stage I guess that it is important for an illustrator to switch into “design” mode and think well before graphically expressing an idea. I think that make for a great illustrator. Not easy. But that’s also why we work in teams isn’t it?
In a way I think that it is better to try and avoid the “someone else will figure out the details”…If possible.
Again at this point I agree when you say: “…I think sketchup is a tool I can use to make that gap smaller…” and that’s also my answer to your question: “how could what the production illustrator does make your life easier down the line?”
Then, I believe that the Designer or the AD should make it clear whether they expect a visual that will translate the overall mood and feel of a story, or if they need something quite precise for a particular set.
I’m sure that there are many points described here which are similar with the Architectural Project.

I'm really glad to see that the subject is of interest to people from different disciplines.
I have good hope that we will get to see more interesting work and learn and share valuable tricks. Please do show some examples if you get a chance!...

DacaD, thanks for your remarks and suggestions I will def look into that. Although in your new suggested workflow, It seems to miss the fact that I need to use VWorks (CAD) for measurements and other construction specifics no?...

Gaganraj, also thanks for posting some of your work, more of it if you can would be fab indeed. I've had a look at your other thread in the "Gallery". Really interesting, I'd love to see a view on your SU model after the Photomatch job is done, from a different angle to see how it comes together in space. Really nice details on the walls too. Do you mind explaining what you use for placing all the trees, grass, bushes etc...? Good point about Photoshop, something I need to explore in details...
In terms of Modo integration, I use it a lot for rendering my SU models. It's rendering engine is just awesome I think. Like I mentioned before, the fact that you get a constant preview is genius. Now in terms of worflow, quite a bit of work but not much flow there either when it comes to switching between SU and Modo. But it's possible. There is this so called SU importer pluggin for Modo, but I think everyone is still waiting for it to happen.
Your participation is exactly what I was hoping to see on this thread. Many thanks.

Plot-paris, when working with SU, the 'Film & Stage' plug is indeed very useful, after all, what we do and build is for the camera eventually (how much of the set needs to be built for a given shot). In terms of improvments... I guess a more ergonomic and visual interface would be great...

dcauldwell, also thanks a lot for your input. Your point about being disciplined is spot on. Specially from an early stage when building your model in SU. Layers also play an important role. I guess this is what comes with experience, after spending frustrating hours on a software, you start to know what will make you're job easier down the line. If you get the chance to post some visual examples that'd be really great, specially of the "template process" you mentioned... if possible.
The thing is about all that workflow jazz, in a way I wish I didn't have to go through it. Like I said earlier on, it's only because no package will allow me to do it in a streamlined fashion. Like dimensioning for example. SU and Layout were close to giving me that, but it's just not happening. It just doesn't do what is written on the can I'm afraid, and I've really given it a chance. Exporting large PDF format with LO is just out of order, making a document with a large models (like the village I've shown at the top) is not happening either, and why can't I dimension in LO directly? Why god why? You SU guys were so close to revolutionizing my work!

So that was different ways of integrating SU in my work, in combination with other tools...
I hope we'll get to see more examples of "workflow" from all the people out there who use SU ...
Thanks a lot,
Greg.

I’ve decided to generate this new thread after participating to the recent discussion “Architects need not reply”. As we were discussing how SU can be perceived in different ways by the people working in Production Design for film and TV, I ended up trying to explain how I integrate SU in my own workflow, and how I combine it with other tools and why. I find this quite an interesting subject as it applies to so many different creative disciplines.

The peeps who have participated to the “Architects need not reply” thread will want to skip the next paragraph. However I feel I need to repeat it here for the ones who join the discussion now…

“What I personally like about SketchUp, is that it put the tool of 3D in my hands and short cut the massive learning curve I’d have to go through with most of the other packages on the market (which is pretty much what the whole concept of SU is based on).
Another thing I enjoy when working with SU, is how it allows me to modify the creative workflow. One of the most traditional types of workflow [in Production Design] would be to go from rough sketches and/or advanced concept visuals, to drafting the sets and then building white card models before green light is given for construction. That’s the simplified version of course, but in the main lines…
Using SketchUp, based on those preliminary rough sketches, I will start sculpting the space directly in 3D. Pretty soon I have in my hands a very good representation of the set, we discuss it, we walk through it and consider the shots with the director and the team, storyboarding from precise spatial references straight out from the 3D model. Adjustments are easy, provided you built your model with that in mind. More details are gradually added to the model, and some particular shots are used for more advanced concept visuals and renders. At any time, I can produce elevations and initial plans, used for construction estimates. Eventually my model can be really quite precise, down to mouldings, windows, doors, and any other architectural details.
From there, I can massively jump start the process of drafting. Unfortunately, at this point SU starts to reach the limits of what it can do for me, so I use VectorWorks for the plans, Vray and/or (more and more) Modo for more advanced organic modelling and rendering.
I do think that the 3D model when used judiciously is a fantastic tool to communicate and discuss the project in the pre-production phase of a film.
Unfortunately, there isn’t a product that can give me all I need in one package. This is a bit frustrating sometimes, as I feel that it wouldn’t take much to make it happen. I need the power and wickedness of Modo, but with the hard surface modelling simplicity of SU, and then be able to produce sweet renders like Modo can, and also simple technical elevations and views with measurements like VectoWorks (or SU and Layout if only it had more muscle). That would be a revolution. So until someone puts all that together, I’ll keep switching between programs like everybody else I guess!”

So that’s my point here, how do people combine different tools in order to deliver the creative ideas?
Going back to Double expresso’s thread about how some people regard SU as “3D Lego” or “baby 3D”, I’ll say that SU can be easily underestimated, and I think that loads of people will agree here… But there are things I can’t really practically do with SU, even though they got it right in the concept of the product…
I’m going to stick a few examples of work here, again, and try to show how I combine SU with VectorWorks, Vray, MODO, InDesign, Photoshop etc…
I hope more people will join in and share their point of view.![I can then add all my measurements and construction notes. This actually work really well at 1/4"-1', on A0 paper size. Work can be emailed or printed from PDF files, presented using InDesign.](/uploads/imported_attachments/9zFR_ProjectPresentation2Email_Page_4.jpg "I can then add all my measurements and construction notes. This actually work really well at 1/4"-1', on A0 paper size. Work can be emailed or printed from PDF files, presented using InDesign.")

...In fact I'm thinking that maybe I'd like to generate a new thread based on our discussion here...
One focused on "workflow" and how people combine different tools and how they integrate SU in their design process...
I think I'll give it a go, might have to repost some of the stuff I've shown here...

Hi there,
I’ve been reading this post with great interest, and I would like to participate and say a few things too…
I work as an Art Director, and SketchUp has a very useful place in my workflow. I think I understand what you mean when you say that some people in the industry consider this tool as nothing more than 3d Lego. It does look like it I suppose, in its basic “out of the can” aspects…
I think it is fair to say that the process of “Production Design” for film or TV is a particular one, a profession with its own rules, techniques and specificities, but the same could be said about Architecture, Product Design, Interior Design and many other disciplines in the fields of applied arts. But all these professions also have loads of points in common. After all, the process of creativity, from concept to realization in any discipline is often about the same qualities of vision, organization, communication, team work, planning etc…
So, in reference to the Lego remark, the thing is with Production Design, it can be quite a conservative environment, and there are some good reasons for it.
I think a tool like SU (amongst a few other packages) is at the very centre of this state of things, the typical clash between the new digital knowledge and the traditional manual craft. There is a lot of that in our industry, especially in the art of drafting scenery, basically drawing the plans for construction.
This is one spot where Production Design is really quite different from Architecture. I won’t go into details, but those not too familiar with it, when creating a period film set for instance, there is a lot of information that goes through the pencil of a draughtswoman/man, beyond the structural aspect of the build, there are also quantities of details about surfaces, textures, effects and treatments of materials which are essential for the control of the final look of the set. This is an old tested reliable technique, which holds a solid position in the process of creating film sets. Hence, the conservative side of our industry I suppose. And maybe the reason why tools like SU can be looked at with a lot of scepticism… and maybe worries too.
The thing is, I don’t think there is a 2D/3D program that can really be fully adapted to our needs. Yet…
But SketchUp was pretty close I think. What I personally like about SketchUp, is that it put the tool of 3D in my hands and short cut the massive learning curve I’d have to go through with most of the other packages on the market (which is pretty much what the whole concept of SU is based on).
Another thing I enjoy when working with SU, is how it allows me to modify the creative workflow. One of the most traditional types of workflow would be to go from rough sketches and/or advanced concept visuals, to drafting the sets and then building white card models before green light is given for construction. Using SketchUp, based on those preliminary rough sketches, I will start sculpting the space directly in 3D. Pretty soon I have in my hands a very good representation of the set, we discuss it, we walk through it and consider the shots with the director and the team, storyboarding from precise spatial references straight out from the 3D model. Adjustments are easy, provided you built your model with that in mind. More details are gradually added to the model, and some particular shots are used for more advanced concept visuals and renders. At any time, I can produce elevations and initial plans, used for construction estimates. Eventually my model can be really quite precise, down to mouldings, windows, doors, and any other architectural details. From there, I can massively jump start the process of drafting. Unfortunately, at this point SU starts to reach the limits of what it can do for me, so I use VectorWorks for the plans, Vray and/or (more and more) Modo for more advanced organic modelling and rendering.
I do think that the 3D model when used judiciously is a fantastic tool to communicate and discuss the project in the pre-production phase of a film.
Like I said, I don’t think there is a product that can give me all I need in one package. This is a bit frustrating sometimes, as I feel that it wouldn’t take much to make it happen. I need the power and wickedness of Modo, but with the hard surface modelling simplicity of SU, and then be able to produce sweet renders like Modo can, and also simple technical elevations and views with measurements like VectoWorks (or SU and Layout if only it had more muscle). That would be a revolution. So until someone puts all that together, I’ll keep switching between programs like everybody else I guess!
I’ll try to attach some examples of work to illustrate my (far too long) post.
Anyway, I could go on and on, but I’ll be amazed if anyone has actually managed to read all that text…
Take care,
Greg.

@silver_shadow said:

lol i have no idea
listen guys... i want to ask something off topic here...
What programs are best to use and easy too, that can do a lot, to me i still think SU are the best to pump out models quickly.

i was talking to a guy and said its like working with an dinosaur and there is much easier programs to have build this. (using nurbs) Isnt it taking longer to pull points around? just a thought, i havent build many things with nurbs before...so its just curiosity thats getting to me.
Wow i would tear my head of if SU 7 introduces particles, man !!

Hi there, I've been following this discussion (and the previous one back when you posted your first model of the village), but for the first time I'd like to post a few lines. First, regarding your question about other packages, there is one which I think is really exceptional, it's Modo from the Luxology team. I've tried to explore as many different software, Cinema 4d and Rhino and all the rest, but Modo is really quite amazing. It has this organic instinctive interface feel that I love in SketchUP, but as a 3D tool I must say does belong to a different league all together. I think it's fair to say that the learning curve will be a bit steeper than SU, but not that much, considering the level of modelling you can perform. Plus it's rendering engine is simply awesome. The other good thing about Modo is that there is a really nice internet community just as free and open minded as SU. You'll find loads of tutorials and pluggins and forums as much as you want, and some really excellent commercial tutorials which are REALLY worth using and will shave hours off the learning curve. I work in the film industry as an art director, and I've used SketchUp quite a bit now. I'm still going to use it, but I also think that Modo has the muscle and power that we all wish to see in SU. Also I just love Modo's interface. Give it a try if you get a chance, you might find it interesting too.
Back to SketchUp, and your work, thank you for sharing it like that, it's just brilliant. I have unashamedly used some of your tricks and tips from your previous model (tried to attach the jpeg here not sure if it works...), so again thanks for that. Not many peeps out there are so generous with their knowledge. I hope to see more of your work before too long, all the best...