Twilight Render - Challenge
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Dave , Here's your fixed model back. Most of your problems were in the model itself. Biggest issue was your glass and your wine were each in separate groups and the wine didn't line up with the inside surface of the glass. When you move the wine shape back inside the glass, once it's lined up proper you explode the group and then intersect the faces. What you ended up with was 3 layers of glass were you should only have 2. Also had stray geometry between
the glass layers that needed erased. Unsoftened the outside rim of the glass. It was causing weird artifacts in the render. I think if 2 faces get real close together it makes the render engine a little crazy. If you want a rounded rim draw it in when your making your template, don't try and get it just by soft & smooth. Redrew the top of the base, you were missing a bunch of faces were the stem and base meet.Last but not least you had a lot of back faces were you should have had front faces. I changed the color of the wine in both just cause I felt like it. Didn't change anything in Twilight. You should be able to plug and play and get a nice result. Also will post render. 05 - medium+ , took 49 seconds.
Almost forgot , one more thing. You should increase your segment count when you draw your circles. Things will look a lot smoother. FYI the rocks glass was drawn with 64 segments.
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ooops..... Forgot something. If your wondering why the saved renders look a little dark around the edges. I had been fooling about with the post pro settings in the rocks glass model and forgot to turn them off before posting the model.
If you want to see the raw render click on post pro ( lower right corner ) in Twilight window and deselect vignette and your renders will look more like the original post of the rocks glass image. sorry....... me bad.......... -
@tuna1957 - I greatly appreciate you taking the time to show me my mistakes. I am embarrassed at all of the mistakes you found. I knew I had not done the intersect but did not realize what the effect was. I am first going to concentrate on drawing the glass correctly then will get back to the rendering. I can see from the file that you sent me that my real problem was the drawing. Had it been correct from the beginning I probably would have done much better with the rendering. I was concentrating on the wrong thing.
Once I get the modeling correct, I want to play around and understand how to generate reflections (i.e. have a reflection of another object on the glass and etc.). I also would like to expand the model to include both a glass and a bottle.
Again, I really appreciate you taking the time to set me on the wright direction. There have been others who have posted some nice images in this thread that I have enjoyed as well but you taking the time to point out my silly mistakes have proved the most valuable to me. I am sure I will wind up with other questions once I get the basics down right.
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Dave, Glad I could be of some help. Don't be embarrassed at making mistakes, that's how you learn. If you could
see some of my early models you'd get a pretty good chuckle. Have been going back through my files recently and
cleaning up early stuff. When I go into monochrome some of them look like checkerboards ! We all started at the
same place so don't let it get you down. Going to give you a few more tips, hope it doesn't freak you out.In your last image you posted, the reason the wine in your glass is black is the back face issue. If you have
reversed faces TW will render them black If you run a test render and you've got objects that look black go to
monochrome and check your face orientation.The stepped red lines in the wine is where the wine group was misaligned and sticking through the side of the
glass. The heavy black effects around the rim of the glass where solved when I unsoftened the outer rim.The comment about segment count in your circles is easily seen in the last render I posted. The segments are very
apparent in the foot of the glass. At least 48 segments would have looked smoother. Might have taken 64.The foot of the glass will look better if it has an upward curve across it's bottom. Only a small part of the foot
actually rests on the table. The wine glass foot is pretty dead flat and is why it's so grey.Make sure you model this kind of stuff BIG. The rocks glass was over 2' tall when i modeled it. Didn't scale down
until all modeling and texturing was finished.Last thing i promise ! Hope you figured out the TW post pro settings I had made in the rocks glass model. Besides
"vignette" being turned on I think I had dialed the exposure down one click. Default is 1.0Well that's it. Hope it's been some help. Glad to do it. Question's are always a good thing ! chuck.
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my test with the glass from dave
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Part of my problem has been with correctly aligning the liquid in the glass before trying to intersect. That my be because I need to scale up and work from there. A few minutes ago (have not scaled up yet) when I applied the template to different materials, the faces reversed in the SU model. I am assuming that may have something to do with things being too small.
Having company today so I might not get back to it until tomorrow. I AM going to figure this out
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Isn't the liquid made from a copy of the glass geometry (which never moves and so needs no alignment?) At what point do you "intersect"?
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@pbacot said:
Isn't the liquid made from a copy of the glass geometry (which never moves and so needs no alignment?) At what point do you "intersect"?
See the post from Pilou on the previous page.
Not exactly sure what you are saying.
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I see. I guess I'd approach it differently. I don't know why the glass and liquid can't be done so that they are already aligned, but OK.
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pbacot, I get what your driving at. There may be an easier way. I've tried different approaches. One thing I
discovered. If the wine surface and inside of the glass aren't isolated by a group when you create the
meniscus and run follow me you lose one row of geometry on the side of the glass. This is right
below the line where the glass side and meniscus join. Then you have a repair job. At least that's what I
had happen during my experiments.Dave , hvanessen , You guys need to check the rocks glass. Look at the difference in the appearance of the sides
of the glass in my renders and yours. It looks like the vertical edges in your models aren't
softened. Almost like their hidden but not softened/smooth. It's like something messed up
passing the file. You need to check that out.good luck and keep experimenting and learning. chuck.
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I just ran through it again. What I did was draw the half profile of the glass and the wine, (for wine it's just adding the center line and surface line including the meniscus profile). I double clicked on each of the two faces making a group each time. I placed the same follow me circle in each group (copy paste in place). And ran follow me for each. Check faces are correct, smooth soften where needed, and check solids. Would that be correct? So you don't have move or align the wine.
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An added tip there pbacot, you don't need to paste the circles into the groups.
Use one circle, select it, get the follow me tool, right click on your profile group to open for edit and click the profile. Shape made within the group and circle still available for the next group. -
pbacot , I think you've hit on something. Should speed up the process. I pretty much stuck with the way massimo illustrated as it's my first tries at this liquid in a glass business. The moving the liquid in and out wasn't a real big deal worked big and used a couple of guides. Will have to try your approach. thanks, chuck.
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Box, a double DUH! from me as I slam my head on the desk repeatedly !
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@box said:
An added tip there pbacot, you don't need to paste the circles into the groups.
Use one circle, select it, get the follow me tool, right click on your profile group to open for edit and click the profile. Shape made within the group and circle still available for the next group.DOH! I always thought it was dumb I could NOT do FM on a grouped face-- and always had to deal with the path being in the same conext. I was the dumb one!
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First of all, thanks for all of your feedback. I have found it very valuable and I have learned some neat tricks (like drawing one circle and applying it to 2 groups) and some other subtle things.
Now, I want to show some things that are happening and get your feedback as to why.
First I will show you the rendered version and then the SU file followed by some questions I need for you to answer for me (tell me what I am doing wrong).
Produced from this SU model
Now here are my questions comments:
- Ignore the lines in glasses 2 & 3. I did not bump up the number of sides in the circle I used for the Follow Me path. Also on glasses 2 & 3, I did not add the wine because it would be a distraction from the problem I am seeing and I wanted to eliminate and issues with that Intersect Faces my add.
- The 1st glass on the left was developed using the techniques several of you described. It was from a previous file and I could not get back to the profile that I used for the Follow Me tool but it pointed out some of the missing faces that occur once I apply the twilight template to the model. Illustrated more drastically in glasses 2 & 3.
- The second glass was a more simplified version without any curved lines because I was thinking that when I tried to make the glass fancier that some lines were not connected properly. Notice on the rendered version that some lines are missing after I applied the Twilight template (Glass::Common)
- The third glass is a copy of the 2nd glass but with a different material and no Twilight template applied to it.
- The fourth glass is the profile that was used for the Follow Me tool for glasses 2 & 3.
In particular, why do faces disappear when I apply the Twilight template (i.e. Glass::Common)? BTW: I saw the same thing happen with the wine.
I have also attached the SU file so you can look at it and see what I am talking about in better detail.
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Dave, Much better. Downloaded and took a look. There was only a few minor issues. Biggest was glass on the left had the wine and glass in separate groups. If you had tried a render you'd have got weird look to the wine. Exploded both groups and then regrouped and everything was fine. What happens is the inside faces of the glass are in the same physical space as the outside of the wine . It will drive SU & TW crazy as 2 faces can't occupy the same space. Easiest way to recognize it is when you rotate the model you will see weird flashing effects on the faces that are flat against each other. You had a few edges that needed soft/smooth and there were 2 unwanted cylinders inside the stems on the center and right side glass. A left over from the follow me. Sometimes that happens depending on the shape your making.
Scaled the glasses down , checked the TW settings and ran a quick render that I've posted. The big plug in the back is one of the left over pieces of geometry from a glass stem , I didn't scale it down
.The only things I changed in your TW settings were as follows.You had 2 different color set ups for your glass. Deleted on and repainted one glass so they both have matching materials. Changed the channels from " sketchup" to "color" and set the alpha to 3 . Set your red color to channel also and set the alpha to 4.Ran the render on easy-medium, took 17 sec. Not bad. The funky look in the bottom of the center glass is my fault. I soft/smooth'ed the bottom edge inside and out. I was curious what would happen. If those edges were unsoftened the bottom of the glass would probably look better. So much for experiments! Keep it up your making good progress.
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Thanks for the feedback @tuna1957 - I really appreciate it.
Now I have to embarrass myself. When I thought some faces had been deleted, I did not take the time to find out that they are really there and that I was seeing all of the green colors because I was seeing the back side of the inside face of the transparent glass. DUH
Yes, I knew there were some different colors schemes so that I could show what I was seeing in SU. Yes, I also knew that I should have softened some edges but my real concern was the DUH moment of not realizing that my green faces was because of the transparency.
I was thinking that I had some missing lines etc. Sure was not the case.I went back to my model and exploded that first glass and it rendered like it should have. I need to mess around with some settings a little more and learn how to set things a little better but I think all of this has been a good lesson for me. When I get a little more time, I think I might try a couple of glasses and maybe even a bottle.
Next thing I need to learn is how to generate reflections on the glasses, etc. Although I am making some pretty silly mistakes, I think I am learning and need to keep exploring some other types of renders to learn how to use the tool more fully.
Again, THANKS for your feedback and patience.
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Dave, Don't hate me. Was a little distracted when I posted earlier. Your glass is still way to thick. Went back into model and looked again. The thickness needs to be reduced by easily 2/3 s it's current thickness. The reflections in glass are a result of good models good light set up and good materials. If you provide the "right stuff" Twilight will give you all the reflections you'll ever want. I've got a scene set up now that I've been pulling test shots off of. Have it about ready to let it run overnight. I'll post some images when I get it done. Regards, Chuck.
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@tuna1957 - I certainly am not mad. I appreciate all of the tips and assistance you have given me.
Something a little different.........
Yes, glass is still a little big compared to the furniture but am getting the idea
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