What will SketchUp Free and Pro look like in 2013?
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@jason_maranto said:
Worrying about who gets compensated for what is a fools game -- and so is the free version (for Trimble).
The very best tactic Trimble could pursue is to make the pay versions (since there will be more than one) so much more compelling and useful that nobody would bother using the free version anymore.
Problem solved.
Best,
Jason.I agree to a certain extent but having a free version at some level is also good for business. The trouble is, IMO, that Google appears to have given little or no thought to what should have been in the free version. Then again maybe they did but their ambition of getting an army of SketchUp users 3D modeling the world for GE was flawed! Most free down-loaders take and give nothing back not even a 'Thank You' let alone buy a cup of coffee for the provider, its sad but true. Just ask our army of Ruby guys!
Now if Google sat down and had a good think about it, they might have said, 'Hold on, we are giving away an application worth nearly $500 in the hope that the down-loaders will do a few GE models for us!' They then might have said, 'Overly optimistic, that will never happen!'
After some thought they might have then only given away a nearly Pro free version to folks that actually did some free modeling for them, even kids that uploaded 'my house' to 3DWH
The initially given away free 'testing' version might have been a very basic version of SU not a Pro version with a couple of features taken out. Who would have complained? No one I imagine! Who did complain? The existing Pro users as it devalued an application they paid good money for and intened to build business on. What happened? These Pro users lost out and to make it worse we see lots of ' Ah, that's only a free app you are using for the work you are doing!'
Its going to be difficult for Trimble SketchUp to come up with a solution that suits all but the bottom line IMO is that the new company will have to 'pay its way' ....... advertising and populating GE now looks to be out of the equation!
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Don't you just love it when people respond to a post without really reading it and....
understanding what was stated????
I said I only use the FREE SU version because it is now a hobby for me, and
the PRO version is not worth the $$ TO ME for the extra features, as desirable as they may be.That means, I can't use LAYOUT to any useful extent.
That also means I don't need to create shop drawings either. I'm not actually building anything.
Well actually that's not quite true. I did do a fairly accurate model of my laundry area to find the best fit for the new washer & dryer, as well as getting rid of the dumb layout the former house owner built.
The SU model showed me a 1 1/4 inch interference with an electrical box jutting out of the furnace. I was then able to move the box BEFORE the units were delivered. No amount of tape measurements onto paper would have clued me to that, until I would have tried to fit them in.Similarly, I modeled my bathroom reno. There I could have used real shop drawings for the new cabinetry, but a few JPG exports with some critical dimensions was enough for the cabinet maker to make cabinets with only 1/2 inch of installation clearance instead of the usual 1 1/2 to 2 inches.
I used to need to make shop drawings about 20+ years ago, and I used ACAD for that. But a small part of my job was conceptual design, and ACAD could not hack it, hence a stack of paper SKETCHES.
When I retired, before the advent of SU, ACAD drove me nuts trying to draw concepts in 3D (2 1/2 D as they termed it). And yes, I tried others as well. An example I use is one where after over 2 solid weeks of trying to conceptualize a complex airplane fuselage in ACAD, I discovered SU and within 2 hours of downloading it, my concept design was done. I've spent the last several years putting a lot of my old paper concepts into SU. New ones too. I use SU for my patent submissions as well, after educating my patent lawyer to use them instead of employing a draftsman. Now he can get and include drawings of complex ideas at any view angle in no time at all.
SU is NOT a CAD. I know that, and I do know the difference, but I do use it as one. Of course there are better tools out there, ACAD, SolidWorx and others that cost plenty. They are NOT hobbyist tools. They are PRO tools.
If I had the $$$$ I would buy a CATIA seat and server.
There are things I can do in SU far faster and easier than with any other s/w.
There are things any other s/w can do better than SU as well.
Ya pays your money and you takes your choice. -
@jgb said:
SU is NOT a CAD. I know that, and I do know the difference, but I do use it as one. Of course there are better tools out there, ACAD, SolidWorx and others that cost plenty.
these are no better or less better tools but tools for other purposes as elaborated above and regardless of the cost.
You should'nt mix them all up in the CAD 'pot' but differentiate between 2D and 3D modeling as well as meshbased wireframe modeling vs. NURBS based surface and volume modeling... which all have their advantages in different areas.
Trying to use AC for 3D modeling just because it is a 'CAD' will not work because it violates the 'using the right tool for the right job' rule... which btw. would be Inventor or Revit etc. if desired from AD.
If ever the need for shop drawings arises and you don't wanna shell out any money for e.g. LO, have a look at the free DraftSight form Dassault (OEM Gräbert CAD).
happy X-mas,
Norbert -
@mike lucey said:
I agree to a certain extent but having a free version at some level is also good for business. The trouble is, IMO, that Google appears to have given little or no thought to what should have been in the free version.................................a solution that suits all but the bottom line IMO is that the new company will have to 'pay its way' ....... advertising and populating GE now looks to be out of the equation!
I like how you think. Indeed a free version also creates a low intrinsic value of a product. that is absolutely correct, hence tons of people not even saying thank you.
So indeed a free version with contingencies attached would be great. Download this and it's free as long as:
- NO commercial use and
- you develop one original script or
- You create 2 buildings (google case)or
- etc...
within one year otherwise the price is $xx
If you don't want to have contingency or need it for commercial use ,then the price is such.
Yes Google should have done that. It creates a form of return on investment for the creator, and it doesn't diminish the intrinsic value, yet it keeps it widely available.
Let's hope.
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IMO free software isn't going to be part of the future... but you can download and use that last free version of SU (held in aspic, so to speak) for as long as you have Win Xp/Vista/7 PC's.
I expect Trimble's whole development effort will go to integrate SU Pro with existing Trimble tools for the purpose of providing whatever competitive advantage that can bring, including (but not limited to) software products that run on OS's released AFTER Win 7, day 1.
SU Free will be there too, stuck in the past like a bug in amber.
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I would agree that SU needs to change. We are having same old same old now for years without any real improvement. Do not misunderstand me I love SU , I still use SU pro and teach it but I became disillusioned with its speed and quality of development and point blank refusal to make 64 bit version and rewrite the core to bring SU to the next level. The core engine is now clunky , slow and not capable to hold large data. ( I can visualise ton of bricks coming my way
) So after long deliberation I decided to move to Rhino. I did it 2 years ago and now I use Rhino for any serious modelling. Just think of T-Splines. Clayoo , Grasshopper, VisualArq ...few out of many plugins for Rhino.
Future of Su....who knows. I suppose Trimble will be thinking how to make money out of it fast , and it might take them sometime before they make any serious change. So for me I will use SU but I do not hold my breath. -
The previous post is an example of exactly what concerns me most -- advanced users of SketchUp are migrating away from the package because the "top-end" of SketchUp is nowhere near what other professional modeling packages can offer.
This loss of top-end modeling talent (and accompanying passion) helps to solidify the concept that SketchUp is a hobbyist-only package (despite the mislabled "Pro").
A hobbyist package is not going to be very effective for Trimble, which is a professional oriented company... so I can't see the status quo going on for much longer before SketchUp ceases to be commercially viable as a stand-alone package.
Best,
Jason. -
Yes indeed, it should be worrisome for Trimble SketchUp that some professional users are looking elsewhere.
Along with the need for a possible 64bit version and all the goodies that might entail I would also like to see the approach on the GUI looked at with a view to having other input options For example, http://leonar3do.com/en/
Even Prince Charles took a shine to this method of modelling input!
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@sepo said:
So after long deliberation I decided to move to Rhino. I did it 2 years ago and now I use Rhino for any serious modelling. Just think of T-Splines. Clayoo , Grasshopper, VisualArq ...few out of many plugins for Rhino.
wireframe modelers as e.g. SU or Form-Z and NURB surface modelers as e.g. Rhino or ViaCAD are targeting different areas of (still professional) modeling, therefore creating a competition which simply does not exist resp. only for a small intersection is pretty senseless... the ol' 'choosing the right tool for the right job' stuff, ya' know.
jm2cts,
Norbert -
@jason_maranto said:
...because the "top-end" of SketchUp is nowhere near what other professional modeling packages can offer.
a correct statement would be:
@unknownuser said:
...is nowhere near what other mid-range/high-end modeling packages can offer.
the type of usage has not very much to do with this, otherwise only modelers as e.g. Catia/Creo/NX (CAD/PLM) or Allplan/ArchiCAD (AEC/BIM) etc. would count to the 'professional' tools... which is obviously disproved by the many commercial users of SU.
if you need more modeling power or AEC/BIM functionality at least yet, simply use the right = another tool, it could be that easy.
jm2cts,
Norbert -
OK, you tell me what exactly SketchUp does better than any other package? Siphoning off of the user-base (via plugin development) is not not something I would give any props to the Sketchup dev team for... if anything they should be ashamed that the (largely unpaid) plugin developers have put them to shame, and this "Pro" modeling software is a joke without the contributions of the user base to prop it up.
My feeling is if I move on from SketchUp as my main modeling package there is nothing outstanding SketchUp brings to the table to bring me back (thus making paying upgrade fees pointless). From my perspective Sketchup doesn't do anything better, and does quite a bit considerably worse -- its most outstanding property is it is free (which is not true in the case of "pro" users).
Enough people take that attitude and the software is dead.
All I ask is that they earn my money... which is only fair.
Best,
Jason. -
@sketch3d.de said:
wireframe modelers as e.g. SU or Form-Z and NURB surface modelers as e.g. Rhino or ViaCAD are targeting different areas of (still professional) modeling, therefore creating a competition which simply does not exist resp. only for a small intersection is pretty senseless... the ol' 'choosing the right tool for the right job' stuff, ya' know.
jm2cts,
NorbertI am not quite sure what exactly did you mean here.
Of course there is no one software for all jobs but if you look at Rhino you will see it covers product/ Industrial Design, Architecture and anything in between. If you look at the work of Zaha Hadid it is mostly done in Rhino with Grasshopper for form finding. VisualArq plugin gives you ability to model architecture intelligently and has automatic output in form of plans elevations and sections. It updates 2d sections and elevations automatically with any change you make. It has intelligent walls and slabs etc. Rhino 5 also has now descent native renderer but for me more importantly it has direct export to Thea. We are now waiting for further plugin integration with Thea. Not to mention that I can use my Rhino files directly in Solidworks and for me more essentially in Vectorworks.
BTW Form-Z is also NURBS (with S )modeler. -
@jason_maranto said:
OK, you tell me what exactly SketchUp does better than any other package?
Ease of use, usability, intuitive UI and ergonomy. I model a loooot quicker in sketchup than any other modeling software. I also like its precision, and the WYSIWYG system.
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Compared to what? Most of the modelers I've used currently have as good if not better usability/speed than SketchUp, and the UI are leagues better.
If you want to see an example of what a better UI should/could look like for SketchUp, look at Layout (probably the best thing about Pro) -- Sketchup is in dire need of a UI update, even by the standard of itself.
Sure, If you are just modeling simple stuff, SketchUp gets you started quickly, but as the model becomes more complex things slow down greatly... and if you want to do anything truly advanced, good luck, without resorting to a 3rd party plugin (or, more commonly, a small army of them).
I'm not sure if we are talking apples and oranges here -- I don't give a hoot about drafting packages... I'm talking normal 3D modeling packages. SketchUp is billed as a 3D modeling package (not a drafting package) so that is what I'm comparing it to. It seems alot of others are laboring under the misconception that it is somehow meant to be a drafting application -- which cannot possibly be true without curves/arcs/circles.
SketchUp had great potential in version 6 -- which was slightly refined in version 7... but version 8 was a joke. There's a reason why many Pro version users still have not upgraded -- SketchUp needs to earn their money. IMO that hasn't happened in a long while...
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
Compared to what? Most of the modelers I've used currently have as good if not better usability/speed than SketchUp, and the UI are leagues better.
Well, in the past few years I tried 3Ds Max, Maya, Cinema 4D, Rhino, Modo, Blender. As I do only architecture, I also compare SU to BIM softwares like Revit and ArchiCAD. Frankly, I never managed to get the same modeling speed as SU in any of these software. The interaction engine, the groups/components fonctionality, etc...
As for the UI, I'm not only talking about the graphic interface, which could be improved, yeah. But about how the user interacts with the geometry.Sure, SU out-of-the-box is far beyond most of the others in terms of power. But for me, it has its speed.
As always, it comes down to "use the right tool for the right job".
For years I used C4D, for modeling characters and props for video games' mods. I found it really intuitive and powerful. Then, I began my architecture studies. And suddenly, for 3D sketching, C4D became heavy and slow. Discovering SU was a slap in the face.
I still often have to use 3Dsmax for rendering purpose, as SU doesn't handle heavy vegetation. And when I do, my only wish is that I could model in it as I do in SU.So yeah, if you need modeling power, move on to something else. I need a good and fast architectural 3D sketching software, and for that I found nothing better than sketchup.
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..... the other 'side of the coin'
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@jiminy-billy-bob said:
@jason_maranto said:
Compared to what? Most of the modelers I've used currently have as good if not better usability/speed than SketchUp, and the UI are leagues better.
Well, in the past few years I tried 3Ds Max, Maya, Cinema 4D, Rhino, Modo, Blender. As I do only architecture, I also compare SU to BIM softwares like Revit and ArchiCAD. Frankly, I never managed to get the same modeling speed as SU in any of these software. The interaction engine, the groups/components fonctionality, etc...
As for the UI, I'm not only talking about the graphic interface, which could be improved, yeah. But about how the user interacts with the geometry.Sure, SU out-of-the-box is far beyond most of the others in terms of power. But for me, it has its speed.
As always, it comes down to "use the right tool for the right job".
For years I used C4D, for modeling characters and props for video games' mods. I found it really intuitive and powerful. Then, I began my architecture studies. And suddenly, for 3D sketching, C4D became heavy and slow. Discovering SU was a slap in the face.
I still often have to use 3Dsmax for rendering purpose, as SU doesn't handle heavy vegetation. And when I do, my only wish is that I could model in it as I do in SU.So yeah, if you need modeling power, move on to something else. I need a good and fast architectural 3D sketching software, and for that I found nothing better than sketchup.
Quite spot on! My list of software I've tried and found slower than sketchup for architectural modeling includes: 3DsMax, Modo, Blender, FormZ, AutoCAD, Revit, and Microstation Triforma. There really is no comparing SU's ease of use and quickness IMO. I'll be using SU8 (plugin enhanced) for a long time to come.
(Edit: And just to be clear, I don't mean I've just tried some of these software. I've been using ACAD nearly 20 years, and I used Triforma daily for about 3 years, and formZ about 5 years on and off, so I know their interfaces back and forth. I've been using Blender only the past year or so, but have a pretty good feel for its limitations now.)
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Hi, andybot:
You mention that you use Blender for architecture. I would be interested in how you might go about doing precision modeling in specific units, such as feet and inches. Or, do you do some kind of proportional conversions? -
I don't do straight architectural modeling so I couldn't say -- but I have recently modeled the exact same complex mechanical structures in several modeling applications and found SketchUp much slower for me (especially as the poly count rises), and generally incapable of even making the forms without 3rd party plugins.
I hear the refrain "it is not the right tool for that" being thrown about... so I guess the "3D for everyone" is also a mislabeling. I mean that phase says SketchUp is meant to be a general modeler -- not an "architectural sketching" specialist.
If a "architectural sketching" program is what Trimble thinks it bought (and wants SketchUp to be) then perhaps it's better for them to simply clearly say so.
If not, and SketchUp is meant to be a general purpose modeler -- then alot of work needs to be done before it can compete on equal footing.
Best,
Jason. -
@mitcorb said:
Hi, andybot:
You mention that you use Blender for architecture. I would be interested in how you might go about doing precision modeling in specific units, such as feet and inches. Or, do you do some kind of proportional conversions?I don't model regularly in Blender for that very reason. I model in SU and bring it into Blender. It's quite a nice workflow with the help of TIG's obj exporter, everything comes in at the correct scale. I do most everything else in Blender, things like "loop cut and slide" are just phenomenal, UV editing is a dream, 64bit environment is night and day vs. SU, and many more delightful functionalities.
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