What will SketchUp Free and Pro look like in 2013?
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That lame argument would hold water if it were not for the massive number of plugins developed to take SketchUp well beyond "simple and small" -- clearly there is a large demand for SketchUp to be other than "simple and small", and only a fool would ignore that demand.
If there are going to be several versions of Pro then there is certainly room for one that is made for this market-share.
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
That lame argument would hold water if it were not for the massive number of plugins developed to take SketchUp well beyond "simple and small"
How many of that "massive number of plugins" are truly beneficial. I bet there are very few that a user will run on a daily basis. Many will be a niche solution for those doing repetative tasks and some for the lazy who haven't grabbed the core program. There are a few shining lights and they are the ones which advance the capabilities of SU by processing complex maths to provide the right solution such as Fredo's bezier plug. Hopefully some of these better examples will be incorporated into the core now we have Trimble commited to developemnt but SU doesn't require pages of buttons for every possible task to be efficient.
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Really? I can name at least 25 indispensable plugins by a wide variety of authors -- most of which are pay solutions.
I'm not saying SketchUp should steal the pay plugins lunch (or even the free plugins)... I'm saying either buy those out or hire the people who made them (as freelance or in-house) to incorporate the best into a proper "pro" modeling package.
The real issue I have with the plugins is the sheer diversity of UI conventions necessary to use them -- if they were all brought under a unified UI philosophy where actions taken would translate well across all modeling functions then everything would be much better for the end user. As it stands now each plugin author has their own unique conventions, which is a real pain.
BTW have you ever paid any attention to the occasional SketchUp screenshot thread around here? About a bazillion icons on every side of Sketchup is typical for most power-users -- this is a joke, and flies directly into the face of the design goals of the SketchUp UI.
Best,
Jason. -
My $0.02
I'm a cheap SOB from way back. It is a hobby platform for me in my retirement. So I don't expect to buy SU Pro anytime soon. I don't use quite a lot of current SU Free features anyway, so the extra stuff in Pro would not be of great value to me.
That being said, a cupla things come to mind.
I doubt very much Trimble bought SU to sell and profit from SU Pro. I don't even think the sales of SU Pro come anywhere near the expense of keeping SU development alive. Google bought SU not to profit from it directly but as an adjunct to Google Earth, and the ad revenue it would bring. THAT would support SU development. Pro sales would be gravy.
Keep in mind, Google gives almost all it's stuff away free; search, maps, earth, mapview, streetview, Android, etc. Google SELLS advertising for revenue and makes a killing on that. As a result of giving away their freebies, they make more money than Scrooge McDuck.
Just visit a Google office anywhere for proof. But Trimble isn't a Google.From all the posts pertaining to Trimble's buyout of SU one thing became clear. Trimble is in the business of Geo-Location and sells devices to support that. I've said this before, they want to include the SU engine into their products, and buying SU outright gets around any copyrights, patents, royalties and most important, the right to prioritize work to meet Trimble's needs, not yours nor mine. (bug fixes foremost)
It does not cost anymore to give away a function limited free version as it does to sell a full function Pro version. How many of us would actually buy a Pro version if free was not available?
I would hazard a guess that not enough at $500 or $700+ a pop to pay 1 senior analyst for a year.How many of us actually buy plugins? Free plugins are the real wizards behind the curtain. Most of the real functionality behind SU now lies in the likes of Curviloft, Tools on Surface, JPP, Solid Inspector/Solver, and a whole lot of others. I'll bet if free went away, most of us would keep V8 alive forever with new plugins to mimic almost anything that the Pro version could offer. And Trimble would not care less if we do.
And even if we had to buy a Pro version, we would still need the plugins. Google almost never did, (and I suspect Trimble never would either) incorporate an outside developed plugin into the core code and functionality.
The next SU update will be telling, and even more-so, the one after that. They will define whether Trimble pays the user community any mind as to feature inclusion and bug fixes, versus doing stuff to meet mainly their own agenda.
Su has another important value to Trimble. Because it is free and many people use it (and Pro) professionally, it behooves Trimble to keep the SU user community "happy" and to educate those that use or could use Trimble's products; that SU and Trimble's products are compatible. That alone will sell bunches of both product and SU Pro.
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I know it's a long shot -- which is why I have one foot out of the door already.
One thing I find very puzzling -- if Trimble did in fact buy SketchUp to gain access to its user base for advertising its other products, then it has done a very poor job of it over the last 6 months.
I really have to wonder what value the free version represents to Trimble at all -- If I was an executive at Trimble, I would make finding a way to profit from the free version priority number one. After all, they spent alot of money for this and so far it isn't doing squat for them.
Best,
Jason. -
@d12dozr said:
@sketch3d.de said:
doing maintenance for the current SU free version only should be the way, new functionality for the pro version only please.
I agree
I'll say it again, that I don't see the sense of this. Are you saying there is that little that SU needs to improve?
I think the changes needed now would be so integral, that maintaining the current free version would be like having to support two separate non-compatibale softwares, unless the Pro version is also crippled.
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We are many to talk around one thing I would like to clearly define.
All these free essential plugins that make Su free and pro an efficient software nowadays give us some rights on it. The trainings and tutorials that are given for free also give us some rights on it. The all splendid models that are shared for free with often their invaluable making-of give some rights on it.
No contract, no paper signed. But
SketchUP now belongs for a significant part to its users community.If tomorrow the users community leave the scene bringing back their skill, their enthusiasm, their models, their plugins, what is going to remain? just a poor overpassed genie soft.
That situation can happen if a significant free version is discontinued, if the community is disconnected from the upgrades.
And yes there are things really more awful to digest that happen in the world every day..simon.
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@pbacot said:
@d12dozr said:
@sketch3d.de said:
doing maintenance for the current SU free version only should be the way, new functionality for the pro version only please.
I agree
I'll say it again, that I don't see the sense of this. Are you saying there is that little that SU needs to improve?
I think the changes needed now would be so integral, that maintaining the current free version would be like having to support two separate non-compatibale softwares, unless the Pro version is also crippled.
Guys, I think what Norbert is getting at is that SketchUp was put into a very unusual situation by Google. Lets be honest with ourselves here. Those of us that were using SketchUp prior to the Google take over and the launch of the free version to the masses will remember there was quite a bit of shock and dare I say it, disgust in the existing Pro using community. One prominent member of the community GM upped and left for Modo!
I also realise that a few software apps had free versions at the time of Google's action and it has become common in recent years, all be it with much cut down versions of the pay for apps in most cases.
In the case of Google they obviously intended to use SketchUp to enhance their other business interests and they also were not a CAD company, it was simply a vehicle to make more cash for them. However they owned the application after the purchase and could do as they please with it, business is business!
I'll ask the question, how can a company that doesn't have the virtually unlimited funds of Google be expected to upgrade and invest heavily in a free application so that it would remain nearly the same as the Pro version?
The company in question doesn't really appear to have another 'cash cow' that can subsidize this like Google's AdSense! Yes, they (Trimble) obviously have other applications that would greatly benefit from a 'touch' of SketchUp but I still imagine SketchUp will have to 'pay its way' to a large degree and I also feel its more than capable of doing so if handled properly.
On the matter of the User Base in some way owning SketchUp! I do agree with this to a certain extent but in spirit only. SketchUp has grown to be what it is today in much part via the efforts of 3rd party developers because of this 'feeling' /attitude. At the same time we have to keep in mind that the code is locked up in Trimble's safe and they own the application not the community.
I imagine a reasonable and fair way through this stage of SketchUp's further development would be for Trimble to progress with the development of SketchUp in its intended Pro forms, particularly for the AEC sector and at the same time keep a reasonably robust and useful free version that will remain true to the **'3D for Everyone!'**ethos.
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@mike lucey said:
On the matter of the User Base in some way owning SketchUp! I do agree with this to a certain extent but in spirit only.
Well , fair enough .
There were so much spirit in those days when it all begun .
Spirit melted with matter would be great in the next release . Will see .
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@pbacot said:
@d12dozr said:
@sketch3d.de said:
doing maintenance for the current SU free version only should be the way, new functionality for the pro version only please.
I agree
I'll say it again, that I don't see the sense of this. Are you saying there is that little that SU needs to improve?
I think the changes needed now would be so integral, that maintaining the current free version would be like having to support two separate non-compatibale softwares, unless the Pro version is also crippled.
My position is don't take anything away from the existing free version. If Trimble needs to further differentiate the free vs. pro versions, then add features to the pro version, but leave the free version as is.
You make a great point though, if Sketchup's core architecture is changed (vs. just adding new tools), then it wouldn't make sense to offer the outdated free version.
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I agree that free SU should be up to date, at least in core functionality, compared to future Pro versions of SU.
Seeing as we may well have a number of Pro versions in the future, probably at differing price levels, I wonder should there be a broad price range, $0, $50, $100 ........ up to $????? All offering more and more to the user!
This would allow for an full speed free basic version. If the user of a particular 'level' of SU wanted to bring it up the ladder a little they might buy further modules?
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Don't even have a guess as to what may happen to the free version. I was at my local Trimble distriber last week and according to them Trimble is throwing lots of $ and resourses at SU development though they didn't give me any specifics if they had any. I do think Trimble will move SU from a "hobbyist" software to a "pro" modeler and cad package to eventually compete with Autodesk. Some things seem to be pointing that way, Civil 3D 2011 & 2012 had functions to import Google Earth images, contours, and/or meshes (see pic), Autodesk Labs even had a plugin for Autocad to geolocate a 3D model similiar to how SU does it. That functionality is now gone from Civil 3D 2013, the Autocad plugin is gone, there is a new one for Civil 3D that uses Bing maps. Just saying....
Mike
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@alpro said:
I do think Trimble will move SU from a "hobbyist" software to a "pro" modeler and cad package to eventually compete with Autodesk.
MikeYou could well be right Mike. In the past, SketchUp developed a 'shake hands' policy with other CAD applications and it still does with the current Pro version. Will that change in the future? Maybe not, but I think Trimble could have their eye on AutoDesk's 'crown' or at the very least require them to 'push over in the bed'
It will be interesting to see how things pan out in 2013 and whether or not Trimble is going in this direction. Building on SketchUp's 'ease of use' will help them on their way but some serious 'beefing up' will be required to SketchUp's core if they are to take on AutoDesk.
AutoDesk's foundation is still built on a 'word processor' approach in my opinion (my use of the application goes way back to the early eighties), whereas SketchUp's foundation was built on the 'doodle on a napkin' approach. The latter feels the more natural for designers and the former, a more natural approach for engineering minds.
There are lots of debates on the Net about SketchUp v AutoCAD, here for example,
Sketchup vs AutoCAD Architecture
http://forums.cgarchitect.com/28151-sketchup-vs-autocad-architecture.html
The debate currently is not valid in my opinion as they are two different type vehicles designed to travel on different type roads. The end destination is the same though, in the case of Building / Architecture at any rate.I think a new 'road' has to be found and there seems to be a lot informed opinion that this new road will be BIM (Building Information Modeling) and as we can see Trimble are very serious about BIM with its acquisitions of late, Tekla etc.
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@alpro said:
I do think Trimble will move SU from a "hobbyist" software to a "pro" modeler and cad package to eventually compete with Autodesk.
MikeWhile I don't disagree, and I am no lover of Autocad, SU has a long way to go before it can rival ACAD at a PROFESSIONAL level. While SU can run rings around ACAD in 3D and ease of mastering, as well as user supported plugin libraries, it lacks a very fundamental ability to produce 3 view drawings on paper, true isometric drawings and true scaled "shop" drawings that ACAD started off as being quite capable.
Keep in mind, I was using ACAD since Ver 1.2 a long time ago, up until 6 years ago when I discovered SU. Never touched ACAD again after that day, and purged it from my PC.
SU also has some ways to go to challenge SolidWorks in the solids and mechanical assembly capabilities.
But SU has its very own niche regarding rapid model development, ease of learning/use and specialty plugins that neither ACAD nor SW can match. As a result, it is IMHO a very high end hobbyist "semi" CAD tool and a low/medium end professional rapid CAD tool.
And for that, I am very appreciative. -
@jgb said:
As a result, it is IMHO a very high end hobbyist "semi" CAD tool and a low/medium end professional rapid CAD tool
Exactly, SU in its current state is not much use to Trimble. We collect so much field data now, theres no way to bring all that into SU. Everything is brought into Civil 3D where an existing conditions base is made and design goes from there, then its brought back into Trimble where its staked on the ground. I think Trimble wants to keep this whole process "in house". Also theres so much competion in field data collection and mapping, Astech, Lieca, Sokkia, Javad, etc., but they all depend on other software such as Civil or Carlson. It would be a great selling point for Trimble if they could offer the "complete" solution. So I think we'll see big changes in SU, starting with Trimbles first version, which IMO I don't think we'll see till late 2013. I expect to see a coordinate system, drawing real arcs using arc length, chord length, radius. I think Trimbles biggest challenge is making SU sophisticated enough for what they need but simple enough to not have to retrain current autodesk users and current SU users. My 0.02....
Mike
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[quote="jgb":3n9k31hw]
@unknownuser said:Have you actually looked at LayOut? Some of us have made some quite decent
Have you actually looked at LayOut? Some of us have made some quite decent drawings with it.
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@jgb said:
While I don't disagree, and I am no lover of Autocad, SU has a long way to go before it can rival ACAD at a PROFESSIONAL level.
yep, as with every other prof. 2D CAD as e.g. AC or Medusa etc.
@jgb said:
Never touched ACAD again after that day, and purged it from my PC.
then you obviously do not need any prof. shop drawings.
@jgb said:
SU also has some ways to go to challenge SolidWorks in the solids and mechanical assembly capabilities.
some ways? hahaha, lightyears would describe better... especially because SWX is a NURBS based volume modeler by design.
@jgb said:
But SU has its very own niche regarding rapid model development, ease of learning/use and specialty plugins that neither ACAD nor SW can match.
simply because that is not the purpose or target of them, AC is mainly used for 2D construction drawings (yes, they are still required) and SWX mainly for 3D MCAD, at least by pros. making a living of them.
@jgb said:
As a result, it is IMHO a very high end hobbyist "semi" CAD tool and a low/medium end professional rapid CAD tool.
SU is no 'real' CAD but a 3D sketcher and probably/hopefully will stay for the foreseeable future, last but not least because of it's mesh based wireframe kernel.
The main competition of SU is something like Bonzai/Form-Z (Design) or Modo (CCAD) and maybe VectorWorks (AEC), surely not the HD CADs.
jm2cts,
Norbert -
@tim said:
Some of us have made some quite decent drawings with it.
which is the prerequisite of every commercial usage.
How complicated this is or how long it lasts to produce the drawings (aka productivity) compared with 'real' 2D CAD packages, that's the question.
jm2cts,
Norbert -
@dave r said:
@simon le bon said:
But I think that before the idea of driving people to pay, Trimble team should roll up their sleeves and work for free, and show us what they are capable of such feats they earn our respect. Then we can actually revisit.
simonlebon
So Simon, I wonder if you would be willing to do your job without pay. You ask that of the SketchUp team. You must be willing to do the same.
It seems logical and fair to argue that nobody should work for free, but what Simon is raising I believe is still valid. (I give benefit of the doubt to the not complete command of English)
The question is not whether one's willing to work without pay, but a matter of what really is and will be the mutual agreement.
Sketchup was provided for free with some limitations (not used for commercial work), in exchange the community created models (warehouse) and scripts mostly for free too. It also contributed to widen the use (to applications and uses the author may not have thought about) and spread the reputation and potential. It was a mutually beneficial agreement to enhance the user base, creativity and contribution to the core software. That was beneficial to the free version, but also to the pro version and that was understood and accepted by all parties.
People that developed for sale scripts also benefited from the installed based of users (free and pro) to sell their scripts. And I didn't see anyone (from Google) denouncing the unfairness of that situation.So the question really is whether that somewhat tacit agreement has been fundamentally unilaterally modified, or even worse as I suspect, is planned to be modified but without being forthcoming or clear about it so as not to lose the benefit gained from the counter party (free scripts and model, forums, user base) as long as the illusion that their tacit agreement has not been altered can be maintained.
For Trimble to make SU a full commercial software is fine. They own it, they can run the business model they want with it. But to do so while attempting to keep the goodwill generated based on the free version of it is quite different.
They're smart, I don't believe they will do so abruptly. So first there will be enhancement only to the pro version, free will remain (or being reduced). Then eventually free may not work and only paid stuff will be available and useful. Great strategy.
If Trimble is to argue that they cannot, or are not willing to do any work that is not followed by monetization of such, then so be it, but it could be clearly stated and then so it could be for all involved.
It will be up to each of us to decide whether we accept the new situation or agreement, but what could be expected is for it to be clear and not look like some kind of political discourse:- No worries we will not change anything and will continue even more to support the free version (translation: please stay on board and continue creating and contributing and improving)
- Well nobody works without pay (fallacy as that was never the case) so we expect to be paid for what we do (always was, just with a different model)
- New version and development is to be paid for, but you can still benefit from all the stuff we didn't pay for because we kept a "free" version.
The question has never been whether the SU team is willing to work for free, for as I firmly believe they always have been paid, I'm not aware that they are volunteers and they shouldn't be. It's just that the business model for the product included a free version to monetize the product in a different manner.
Trimble can change that, but fairness would then be to pay all developpers of free scripts and warehouse models something too for the acquired benefit. These people have indeed "worked for free" to create the value in what Trimble HAS now. Value in user base, potential clients, impact, existing IPs and so on. So indeed "nobody should work for free".The least they could do is clarify the situation so that everyone knows exactly what will happen from now on and what to expect if they volunteer their time to contribute to the software and its community: - Will they get a real benefit in return? (like free updates)
- Will they get an opportunity for being paid (through sales or otherwise) for their effort?
- Will they just contribute and only get charged in return (with new software for sale only)?
That would be nice, but I understand why it's not in Trimble's interest, and that is precisely what makes me (and I suspect others) cautious.
That would be nice, but it's neither in Trimble's interest nor duty to keep us, contributors, aware or guarantor of our own interest. Caveat emptor!
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