What will SketchUp Free and Pro look like in 2013?
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@jason_maranto said:
I have lost my faith in the SketchUp development process...
That's unfortunate but I do believe the development team is working on the right track. I think Google created a bit of a mess but I believe the SketchUp team itself is going down the right path now.
I do recall Bryn saying there would probably be more than one "pro" version of SketchUp. I got the impression they would use these versions to target different disciplines. That could be a good move for them to make packages or as someone described it, different modules. I would also expect we'll see more development on the LayOut side and I'm looking for some big improvements.
Price increase? Sure, why not? It's the same price now as it was when I bought V3 from @Last. If you consider inflation and the improvements that have been made it's actually a better value now than it was then. And while $500 isn't anything to sneeze at, compared to a lot of other options out there, it's cheap.
As to the free version of SketchUp, it is perfectly reasonable to expect a wider gulf between the two. I see the point about turning off potential buyers of the pro version if the free version doesn't get developed along with it but Even if the free version didn't change from the current free version, what would it hurt? It wouldn't be going backward.
I remember reading a comment on a woodworking forum from someone who said he had just downloaded the free version just before the sale to Trimble was announced. He had decided not to learn to use it until he found out what Trimble was going to do with it. In my mind that's like saying you're not going to use the bandsaw you bought last week because the manufacturer was sold to another company. That doesn't change the tool you just bought any.
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Some good insight here, thanks.
Jason you say you have lost faith in the SketchUp development process. I can understand that as I imagine the 'soft and comfy' 6 or so years at Google must have taken their tole on the team. I still however feel that much of the original @Last ethos still resides in the core development team. I think its just a case of them digging deep and finding it again.
SketchUp v1 broke the mould! I still remember the say I stumbled across it and then took to it like a 'duck to water'. I would hope that SketchUp 2013 would again break a mould.
I must say that I was somewhat disappointed with 3DBC 2012. I thought an opportunity was lost to give the SketchUp community a glimpse of what might be in store for us. Even if the 'road map' was not fully laid out, I think we could have been shown some 'dreams'!
This was done at at earlier 3DBC, the second I think. At that 3DBC we were show lots of possible new features, some we got and more we didn't. If I remember correctly it was John Bacas that made that particular presentation.
2013 is only 19 days away but again there are 365 days in 2013
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There are only one thing I really want right now, 64 bit support or a way to handle more poly's, I'm sure Trimble also wants this as their business is based on topography, something SU does not do too well due to it's limitations.
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If the actual free version can works in the future, that will be yet a very good thing!
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As far as you did not sale your Minitel, you can run the V6.
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Hi free world!
excuse me in advance, here is to come a long post for my bad English.I wonder if the issue is properly raised.
As I see it, I think the real question is: Is SketchUP can be a real professional software.SketchUP is brilliant, full of talent, but it is constrained by its architecture at least on two unavoidable points.
First, SketchUp is unable to handle very large volumes of data. Yet it is the norm in today's industrial world.
Secondly, in today's world every creation comes through with curves. SketchUp can't do other than curves composed with straight lines. That generates unacceptable errors when carrying out the plans.
Would that for these two reasons, SketchUp can not hope to claim a truly professional status and have its place in the big league.
To overcome this handicap I fear SketchUP achitecture have to be completely rethinked and thus the entire code completely rewrited.On the other hand, the main (and only) significant SketchUP advances have always come from the volunteer developers in the invention and development of new tools. What would SketchUp Pro look like today without them? Let there be no mistake, this is because of the use of tools developped by free developpers of the free side that the paid version is capable of displaying a wingspan of Pro.
Widen the gap between the versions! Does it not mean "stealing code" to free developers to integrate their tools in the pro version?
Is "widen the gap" is not going to push the developers to leave the scene? Indeed, why give for free when Trimble turns it into cash?I do not know what will happen in SketchUp. But I think that before the idea of driving people to pay, Trimble team should roll up their sleeves and work for free, and show us what they are capable of such feats they earn our respect. Then we can actually revisit.
simonlebon
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@simon le bon said:
But I think that before the idea of driving people to pay, Trimble team should roll up their sleeves and work for free, and show us what they are capable of such feats they earn our respect. Then we can actually revisit.
simonlebon
So Simon, I wonder if you would be willing to do your job without pay. You ask that of the SketchUp team. You must be willing to do the same.
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Somon, I understand where you are coming from but the point you raise that the SU Team would use and cash in on others work might happen in 'widening the gap'. I very much doubt this would occur.
John Bacus, from my memory, mentioned at 3DBC that if they saw plugins that they thought should be brought into SU they would be willing to do business with the developers. This might not be exactly what he said but I think its the gist of what was intended.
Whatever way one cuts it, Sketchup has always appreciated its community of users and has maintained contact and ongoing collaboration. I very much doubt ACad users are on a first name basis with the developers and that the developers enter the 'lion's den' on occasion to be inflicted some bites and bruses
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@d12dozr said:
...I used SU free for about a year until I needed Layout, when I happily purchased. I am grateful for the (nearly) full use of the program and may never have learned and eventually purchased it if not for the opportunity...
Exactly the same with me (although my "free time" was only about half a year and back then there was no LayOut yet).
@iichiversii said:
...if it weren't for google making a free version the sketchup community wouldn't be so big as it is today...
True. I had not even heard of SketchUp before the free version came out.
@d12dozr said:
I'm watching the Basecamp videos (which were just posted on Youtube!!
) and Bryn says there may be different versions of Sketchup available.I think that's great! For example, there could be a totally free version, a Pro hobbyist version for ~$100, and a Pro architectural version for $500...or some similar scheme.
AFAIK what they mentioned there was not different versions like what you suppose above but what Bob is writing:
@bob james said:
One mode of advancement would be to do nothing to the free version and put all of the advancements into the pro version with specialty modules (rather than whole versions) that can be purchased separately.
@mike lucey said:
...John Bacus, from my memory, mentioned at 3DBC that if they saw plugins that they thought should be brought into SU they would be willing to do business with the developers. This might not be exactly what he said but I think its the gist of what was intended...
And they did that already for the stl exporter in the latest maintenance release (used ideas from two 3rd party plugins - one was that of Jim actually)
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Good morning to all
@dave r said:
So Simon, I wonder if you would be willing to do your job without pay. You ask that of the SketchUp team. You must be willing to do the same.
Dear Dave,
What I mean is that SketchUp software need greatly first to "reduce the wide gap" between itself and the leading business solutions.Somehow it is also true that the SketchUp development process must "regain our faith".
Anyway SketchUp Pro is currently a paid solution and therefore represents already seems to me a source of income that allowed the team to be paid for his work@mike lucey said:
Simon, I understand where you are coming from but the point you raise that the SU Team would use and cash in on others work might happen in 'widening the gap'. I very much doubt this would occur.
John Bacus, from my memory, mentioned at 3DBC that if they saw plugins that they thought should be brought into SU they would be willing to do business with the developers. This might not be exactly what he said but I think its the gist of what was intended.
Dear Mike,
How many essential tools perfectly designed should be implemented in SketchUp, often in replacement of existing tools? 15, .., 25? I can't imagine that Trimble will pay for such a large amount of ultra talented code which is actually "given for nothing", nor they will waste their time to "reinvent" the same tools! ...It is therefore predictable that it is with these free stuff that Trimble will make runing an expensive paid version.
On the other hand, the idea to develop specific paid modules seems however, quite acceptable. And this is something that is already developed nicely by many third parties
@mike lucey said:
Whatever way one cuts it, Sketchup has always appreciated its community of users and has maintained contact and ongoing collaboration. I very much doubt ACad users are on a first name basis with the developers and that the developers enter the 'lion's den' on occasion to be inflicted some bites and bruses
I agree with you on that essential point. The close collaboration between development team and the community of users is a main richness of SketchUp. This is why (imo) it is essential for Trimble to be finely careful to keep this alive.
@gaieus said:
@bob james said:
One mode of advancement would be to do nothing to the free version and put all of the advancements into the pro version with specialty modules (rather than whole versions) that can be purchased separately.
@mike lucey said:
...John Bacus, from my memory, mentioned at 3DBC that if they saw plugins that they thought should be brought into SU they would be willing to do business with the developers. This might not be exactly what he said but I think its the gist of what was intended...
And they did that already for the stl exporter in the latest maintenance release (used ideas from two 3rd party plugins - one was that of Jim actually)
Dear Gaieus,
I like your dispassionate synthesis.
I'm confident that SketchUp team and John Bacus in the first place under the Google coverage before that of Trimble right now has always worked in a good spirit. And they have done and actually do what they can with what they are given.I hope the best for the futur of SketchUp,
I would like to still have my place as a passionate hobbyist in that futur...with my sympathy,
Simon
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@d12dozr said:
...new users may just migrate to other free alternatives (of which there are many!).
because I'm not aware of just one alternative app I'd love to hear all of them? ... Blender, you're kiddin'
doing maintenance for the current SU free version only should be the way, new functionality for the pro version only please.
if recent SU free users are willing to switch to "alternatives" easily, they are obviously not very much worth for Trimble in the sense of developing sales of the pro version... community is not everything, sometimes you need to pay for the work of others.
jm2cts,
Norbert -
On a hard commercial footing the free version is just an open ended trial. It needs to be sweet enough to convince users that it is worth the upgrade to the Pro version. If the user doesn't like the program or walks because he has seen something more suitable then it isn't really a problem for Trimble they didn't make any money from the user anyway. Google's business model was very different, get used to the idea that SU will no longer be subsidised by advertising revenues and Trimble will need to make a profit. If you are making money out of the free version maybe it's payback time if you want SU to survive.
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It would be fun to see stats on how many free users end up purchasing Pro in the end.
But that aside, Trimble already has a customer base which has successfully made them profitable, so I would think it is quite substantial. If Trimble's aim is to have a kind or vertical integration throughout its product range, then this customer base all become potential customers. I have a feeling that the free version will not be a viable tool within this product range, therefore if the version of SketchUp that does allow you to have this integration will be an asset to your business, you will purchase it. In most businesses it is recognized that your best customer is the one you already have, to me, this model makes quite good sense. I also think what Simon said made good sense too. If SketchUp were to be upgraded to the point it could handle very high poly, and nurbs, they would once again be really expanding their client base.
That said, given my experiments with modelers that can handle these, I think there would be a high price in ease of use.
May be a case of "Careful what you wish for". -
I find nothing objectionable about the pricepoint of form.Z ($995) -- if SketchUp were to offer similar functionality in a "Pro" version I would happily pay an equal amount.
I don't think this small amount of money is the issue for most Pro version users -- we can justify the expense if we are making money from it. Over the course of a year there is not much difference between a cost of $500 and $1000... if you are even moderately successful the added functionality would easily pay for itself in better productivity.
However, it is now my belief that Bacus would never allow SketchUp to become that powerful -- he is obsessed with the "less is more" concept (both in UI design and modeling) and resistant to change.
I'll wait and see what comes out when 2013 hits, but my finger is hovering over the purchase button of several competing packages... if I do purchase a competing package you can be sure I won't waste my money upgrading SketchUp Pro.
I know I'm really coming off harsh in these posts -- and I wish I could clearly state my position without doing so... but I have to make it clear I've got one foot out the door, and it will take something exceptional to make me decide to stay. Based on his recent comments in these forums I don't believe John has "exceptional" in the works.
Best,
Jason. -
@sketch3d.de said:
@d12dozr said:
...new users may just migrate to other free alternatives (of which there are many!).
because I'm not aware of just one alternative app I'd love to hear all of them? ... Blender, you're kiddin'
- 123D
- Openscad
- K3DSurf
- TopMod
- Wings3D
- Sculptris
- Blender. Yes Blender. I don't like it, you don't like it, but the fact remains there are LOTS of people using it, and loving it.
This list reflects a few alternatives (there are more!) for how I use Sketchup, designing for 3D printing. For architectural work, not one of these are good alternatives, but I'm guessing many of the free users are not using it for architectural work either.
@sketch3d.de said:
doing maintenance for the current SU free version only should be the way, new functionality for the pro version only please.
I agree
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@jason_maranto said:
However, it is now my belief that Bacus would never allow SketchUp to become that powerful -- he is obsessed with the "less is more" concept (both in UI design and modeling) and resistant to change.
still the same ol' misunderstanding, being simple and small (aka 'ease-of-use') is the idea behind and the concept of SU.
SU never was targeted or intended as an exact CAD resp. full-blown AEC/BIM system and hopefully never will be. There is enough mature and settled competition in this area, definitely no need to invent the wheel again. If you need something full blown, do not ask SU for developing in this direction but use/buy the appropriate tool required.
@jason_maranto said:
of several competing packages...
I would be interested to hear what you see as a competing package. ArchiCAD/Revit/Allplan, you're kiddin'
jm2cts,
Norbert -
That lame argument would hold water if it were not for the massive number of plugins developed to take SketchUp well beyond "simple and small" -- clearly there is a large demand for SketchUp to be other than "simple and small", and only a fool would ignore that demand.
If there are going to be several versions of Pro then there is certainly room for one that is made for this market-share.
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
That lame argument would hold water if it were not for the massive number of plugins developed to take SketchUp well beyond "simple and small"
How many of that "massive number of plugins" are truly beneficial. I bet there are very few that a user will run on a daily basis. Many will be a niche solution for those doing repetative tasks and some for the lazy who haven't grabbed the core program. There are a few shining lights and they are the ones which advance the capabilities of SU by processing complex maths to provide the right solution such as Fredo's bezier plug. Hopefully some of these better examples will be incorporated into the core now we have Trimble commited to developemnt but SU doesn't require pages of buttons for every possible task to be efficient.
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Really? I can name at least 25 indispensable plugins by a wide variety of authors -- most of which are pay solutions.
I'm not saying SketchUp should steal the pay plugins lunch (or even the free plugins)... I'm saying either buy those out or hire the people who made them (as freelance or in-house) to incorporate the best into a proper "pro" modeling package.
The real issue I have with the plugins is the sheer diversity of UI conventions necessary to use them -- if they were all brought under a unified UI philosophy where actions taken would translate well across all modeling functions then everything would be much better for the end user. As it stands now each plugin author has their own unique conventions, which is a real pain.
BTW have you ever paid any attention to the occasional SketchUp screenshot thread around here? About a bazillion icons on every side of Sketchup is typical for most power-users -- this is a joke, and flies directly into the face of the design goals of the SketchUp UI.
Best,
Jason. -
My $0.02
I'm a cheap SOB from way back. It is a hobby platform for me in my retirement. So I don't expect to buy SU Pro anytime soon. I don't use quite a lot of current SU Free features anyway, so the extra stuff in Pro would not be of great value to me.
That being said, a cupla things come to mind.
I doubt very much Trimble bought SU to sell and profit from SU Pro. I don't even think the sales of SU Pro come anywhere near the expense of keeping SU development alive. Google bought SU not to profit from it directly but as an adjunct to Google Earth, and the ad revenue it would bring. THAT would support SU development. Pro sales would be gravy.
Keep in mind, Google gives almost all it's stuff away free; search, maps, earth, mapview, streetview, Android, etc. Google SELLS advertising for revenue and makes a killing on that. As a result of giving away their freebies, they make more money than Scrooge McDuck.
Just visit a Google office anywhere for proof. But Trimble isn't a Google.From all the posts pertaining to Trimble's buyout of SU one thing became clear. Trimble is in the business of Geo-Location and sells devices to support that. I've said this before, they want to include the SU engine into their products, and buying SU outright gets around any copyrights, patents, royalties and most important, the right to prioritize work to meet Trimble's needs, not yours nor mine. (bug fixes foremost)
It does not cost anymore to give away a function limited free version as it does to sell a full function Pro version. How many of us would actually buy a Pro version if free was not available?
I would hazard a guess that not enough at $500 or $700+ a pop to pay 1 senior analyst for a year.How many of us actually buy plugins? Free plugins are the real wizards behind the curtain. Most of the real functionality behind SU now lies in the likes of Curviloft, Tools on Surface, JPP, Solid Inspector/Solver, and a whole lot of others. I'll bet if free went away, most of us would keep V8 alive forever with new plugins to mimic almost anything that the Pro version could offer. And Trimble would not care less if we do.
And even if we had to buy a Pro version, we would still need the plugins. Google almost never did, (and I suspect Trimble never would either) incorporate an outside developed plugin into the core code and functionality.
The next SU update will be telling, and even more-so, the one after that. They will define whether Trimble pays the user community any mind as to feature inclusion and bug fixes, versus doing stuff to meet mainly their own agenda.
Su has another important value to Trimble. Because it is free and many people use it (and Pro) professionally, it behooves Trimble to keep the SU user community "happy" and to educate those that use or could use Trimble's products; that SU and Trimble's products are compatible. That alone will sell bunches of both product and SU Pro.
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