Economic Crisis - some advantages?!
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Back to the original point. We had a recession in the 70's that coincided with "back to the land" sentiments, cooperatives, anti-materialism, and some spiritual seeking. (for better and worse). Cause and effect or not. I think it was partly a baby boomer glut of young people with lack of jobs. But I think less people were looking to God than to the government, and in some cases "alternative" income to help them out.
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Yeah Alan, I thought we were going to have an intelligent debate also
Cornel, It looks like Pete was right. I think we would prefer not to have this topic smothered with religion! Fair enough, if you or anyone else wants to pray to God for help, go ahead with our blessing
BTW, isn't it said,'God helps those, who help themselves!'.Now, how can we help ourselves? I think the first thing to do is try and fully understand what has happened to cause the problem also what is currently happening and then act to try and remedy the mess!
It looks like these are two major problem zones, USA and EU. The USA seem to be trying to 'money print' their way out of trouble instead of manufacturing their way out like they did in the past and the EU are imposing restrictions and no incentives! I can't see either of these envisaged solutions working. To get a picture of what's happening in Europe, this interactive graphic helps.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16098582I feel the only answer for Europe is total Union, one government in Brussels, in other words, the United States of Europe. I have a feeling that most sensible politicians know this deep down but are afraid to actually voice it in public for fear of not being re-elected into their cushy localised jobs.
If this happens (total Political Union) we would end up with a Government that would have the best from each country running our EU affairs! The current EU parliament looks to me to be a talking shop full of second rate political wannabes, its a joke! All we have to do is look at our local MEPs (Members of European Parliament), all they do is pass their time voting on what size a parsnip should be and such like, I'm serious. Now that push has come to shove, its Merkal and Zarcosy that have taken the reins! But I don't believe wither of them have the political skill to pull off a solution.
Another major problem is the balance of trade with China, Korea etc. Just looking around my house I see a huge amount of stuff that comes from China! One hand washes the other, as they say! Its not possible to continue doing business with others if they don't return the business! But again the Chinese plan would appear to be to buy up assets in other countries! I suppose it better than worrying about the 'Yellow Peril' that was high on the political agenda some decades ago.
The Big Corps are being short sighted also, how can they expect to see citizens of the West buy their products if they are being made in China? Maybe they don't! Possibly they are are on the gravy train for a quick kill! They are mobile of course and will move anywhere their is a buck to be saved or made. So they won't be the answer either.
We have been hearing conspiratorial rumors about a New World Order for quite a few year now. Maybe some of the ideas behind a New World Order might just improve the lot of humanity. For a benign New World Order to work for all, communication would have to work right down to the grass roots level. This has now become possible these days with the development and growth of the Internet. Just look at the upheavals in the many Arab states of late, its seems Twitter and FaceBook played a major part in information transmission.
The so called 'Power Brokers' often mentioned to be behind a New World Order are really a very small group / number of people! While they currently control the money / power situation, they cannot control citizens thinking, at least not citizens with some degree of public spirit.
So, I suppose the fist step is to voice your opinions. If enough do so, the politicos will realise that they had better do what the populous wants.
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@mike lucey said:
Now, how can we help ourselves? I think the first thing to do is try and fully understand what has happened to cause the problem also what is currently happening and then act to try and remedy the mess!
OK 'Mike L', start from CAUSES!
Can we propose something special, in the crisis situation in which we deep?! Most people, in crisis, are happy to survive ...!
Field more 'obvious' hit is the economic one, but the **ECONOMIC CRISIS (natural, manipulated ... or combined) ARE actually TRIGGERED AND FUELED BY OTHER TYPES OF CRISES, SUCH AS MORAL AND SPIRITUAL, plus social and political.**The economic crisis is that which 'bothers' more, other types being more easily tolerated/accepted ... God uses economic crises, (even those social or political) to open our eyes to the crisis of higher order: as moral and spiritual! -
@unknownuser said:
God uses economic crises, (even those social or political) to open our eyes to the crisis of higher order: as moral and spiritual!
Your argument doesn't make any sense to me. It has been my understanding that the Christian God is supposed to have given 'Man' freewill! Its obviously man's free will that has created this mess and its going to be a result of man's free will that get us out of this mess. I very much doubt that God or Gods have anything to do with it.
On the other hand if you are saying that God has caused this economic crises in order to encourage man to 'adore' him, that really is a sad situation. Its like a father causing ill to a child in order to gain respect. As a father of two children I could never countenance such an act.
So, I'd say, better to stay on topic and use, in your case, believed to be 'God given' and in my case 'evolved' intelligence to figure things out. If your God wants to row in with some help, I have no problem with that either
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This is an article well worth reading I think. Its on Edge,
CAN SCIENCE HELP SOLVE THE ECONOMIC CRISIS?
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/brown08/brown08_index.html -
@mike lucey said:
This is an article well worth reading I think. Its on Edge,
CAN SCIENCE HELP SOLVE THE ECONOMIC CRISIS?
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/brown08 ... index.htmlYou're right, ‘Mike L.’, that article appears to be seriously prepared, but, “separated from God we can do nothing” (John 15:5)
The crisis are REORIENTING us.
We always need RESEARCH, as David says:
“Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting” (Psalm 139:23-24)
King David knew that we could easily grab a wrong way ... We need correction, straightening of life, because sometimes we lose direction and correct vision. While economic crisis, we regain clear vision of reality and we focus on what is really important.So we begin to DISTINGUISH PRIORITIES and follow them more carefully, we come to recognize how much Jesus Christ was right when He advised us, referring to the heavenly Father:
“Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all other things will be given to you as well.” (Mattew 6:33)Crisis teaches us about DEPENDENCE on God and living through FAITH. When all goes well and we have plenty of money, it seems that we are sufficient, it seems that we have no need of something or someone, even of God...
The Lord allowed crises and reminds us how dependent we are on Him, and we begin to live by true faith. Those who always have all, in abundance, they have no intimate experience with the Lord...! -
I give up Cornel, no point in continuing this discussion
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@Mike Lucey
+1
If we can't save ourselves, we expect god to do this?
What is god? Our flexible creation of a father or something?
What is a shame?
Better. What means "acknowledged disgrace"? -
I see, it'sthe english language barrier.
Let's try this one. An old lady,
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@unknownuser said:
Does Crises, ‘bring’ us something...?!
At first they give us an ACCURATE PERCEPTION OF OURSELVES, and wipe to us the illusion and pretense that we are in control of situations and circumstances. Often, we have a false impression that we control our reality, forgetting that God is one who has.
Man is not above the times, and how things work does not depend on his skill and wisdom. As many ‘artifices’ would make the man, God is controlling everything...Many ignorants say that all is to ‘think positively’, to be 'logical', to not let yourself beaten or intimidated by the situation... etc., but, apart from God, all those measures are useless...
To experience great and useful things in our lives, it is necessary to be honest , to admit that we aren’t masters of situations, and that God decides every detail.What a load of drivel, only your kind can believe that crap, realists take charge and handle the situation themselves and not leave the problem to solve itself then thank god if it does or say it was not his will if it does not.
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Crisis bring us ‘breaking’ that we so need, eliminating the pride of our lives, and removing one of the biggest obstacles to God's mercy.
We resist to the will of God and give not Him free to act as He wants. We are almost always tempted to keep in our thoughts, and to self-appreciate in the condition in which we are…
Who never said seriously: “I want Your will to be done, not mine” , that needs ‘crushing’ and crisis shall not delay to appear ...!
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Does Crisis, ‘bring’ us something...?!
At first they give us an ACCURATE PERCEPTION OF OURSELVES, and wipe to us the illusion and pretense that we are in control of situations and circumstances. Often, we have a false impression that we control our reality, forgetting that God is one who has.
Man is not above the times, and how things work does not depend on his skill and wisdom. As many ‘artifices’ would make the man, God is controlling everything...Many ignorants say that all is to ‘think positively’, to be 'logical', to not let yourself beaten or intimidated by the situation... etc., but, apart from God, all those measures are useless...
To experience great and useful things in our lives, it is necessary to be honest , to admit that we aren’t masters of situations, and that God decides every detail. -
@unknownuser said:
Many ignorants say that all is to ‘think positively’, to be 'logical', to not let yourself beaten or intimidated by the situation... etc., but, apart from God, all those measures are useless...
To experience great and useful things in our lives, it is necessary to be honest , to admit that we aren’t masters of situations, and that God decides every detail.@unknownuser said:
Who never said seriously: “I want Your will to be done, not mine”
@Cornel
Sorry, but these don't sound very christian to me. At least as baptized an orthodox christian.
But honestly I'm not a christian, neither an enemy.
I pray for democracy and I have faith to humanity. It's time to fight. -
- What output crisis?!
- First of all, true knowledge and proximity to God!
We believe that we know God well, but we do not realize how superficial we are… Crisis help us to know Him properly, effectively, as He is, making possible the revelation of God in all His glory. Thus, the crisis come to know His wisdom, power, goodness, faithfulness, etc., and we depend on Him more and more.
We have the practice not to hope in the Lord, as long as we rely on other things. Then, crisis occur…, which eliminates any support in our lives, and we only have to turn to Him.
You can have all, in abundance, but, for example when a doctor lets you know that only God can heal you, and prolong your life, all your resources and relationships have no value…Due to the crisis, we start to obey God's will! Theoretically, we pray "Lord Thy will be done!", and many believers say this as a slogan, especially when things are going well ... Usually we do not change for the better, and not do the will of God because we are given exhortations and lessons…, but when we are in trouble. Then we are open to God, and allow Him to work changes in our lives …!
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Once there was a man whose house was in a flood. He stood on the porch as the waters rose. A boat came by, the driver urged the man to get on board but the man said he was waiting on the Lord to save him. The waters rose, the first floor was flooded and as the man looked out his second story window, another boat came to rescue him. The man turned the boat away, saying he would wait for God to rescue him. Finally he was clinging to the chimney on the roof. A helicopter flew overhead and dropped down a ladder. The man waved it off, saying Jesus would save his life. Finally he was swept away in the waters and drowned. At the pearly gates, he saw God and said, Lord, all my life I did as you asked but when the time came you did not save me. And God said, "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what else did you want?"
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@ 'Box' & 'irwanwr'.
At least was me who posted many times on this Forum about salvation by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and was almost in vain...!
“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through Me” , said Jesus Christ.You are waiting for nothing a “boat” or an “helicopter”...!
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So you mean it would have been ok to get a lift if the boat captain or pilot were called Jesus.
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Cornel,
IF there is a God... then...
God helps them who help themselves.
God did not make us [you] to sit around waiting to be saved by God.
God did create us [you] to make our own way in the world, and to try to do our best with our lot.
If we [you] really believe that God will 'sort it all out for us' we [you] are deluded.
That's not God's purpose.
How could it be?
If God were to interfere with any aspect of our [your] life it is negating the very freewill that God supposedly granted us, and thereby it renders God's whole 'experiment' worthless, pointless and without merit - not what you'd expect of a deity!
If we [you] believe that, "Whatever happens is for the best, in the best of all possible worlds!" [à la Candide], then you are beyond help...
God expects us [you] to strive to make a difference in the world with each and every thought and deed.
God does not expect us [you] to sit idly by and let things happen around us with no interaction; in some idiotic pagan-fatalist manner; as if God had it all planned out, so whatever we [you] do doesn't matter at all, because it's either part of God's mysterious plan already, OR if it's not then it's of no consequence because the outcome is fully predetermined.
IF God has everything predetermined why worship, why revere, why respect ? - that's simply no way to run a proper universe...
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@tig said:
If God were to interfere with any aspect of our [your] life it is negating the very freewill that God supposedly granted us
Man is free to choose: to make his own will, a FOOLISH one, or the will of God, the BLESSED one...
@tig said:
IF God has everything predetermined why worship, why revere, why respect ? - that's simply no way to run a proper universe...
God has not predestined future of a particular man, but of CATEGORIES of people! Each person chooses the grouping...
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