Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@solo said:
So when you question something that sounds ridiculous and you do not find an answer you just accept and move on? I do not think that is smart at all.
To me it's kind of like the double slit experiment which I'm sure you're familiar with (if you haven't seen this version though it's a MUST see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc ). It's pretty mind boggling, particularly when you get into the notion of observation affecting the outcome. Really all of that quantum physics stuff is mind boggling. And I find it fascinating to peruse the various theories that scientists have come up with to explain the results as well as theories about what those results mean for other areas of science.
I think for me (and it would seem for Jason as well), this is somewhat analogous to how the Noah story is. It's interesting to research and debate different theories on how it may have occurred as well as to postulate how each of those theories might affect our broader worldview and theology. But in the end, no matter how ridiculous the story may sound on its face, it's enough to simply know that it happened. Except in this case, having both historical and literary aspects rather than repeatable scientific ones, we must also ask what the "it" was that happened or even if the original author believed "it" happened at all or if he was merely relaying a point to his audience.
It's all very intriguing but in the end what would need to be proven isn't whether or not the flood could have happened, because if we allow for God then the answer is yes (no matter if that seems like a cheat to the atheist or not). Instead what would need to be proved is that there's no God, or at least not one who would have so intervened. And that's where I come back to the resurrection in particular, not that it's the sole evidence for God but I find it to be the crux of the matter on which the Christian faith rests.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
‘Dropout’ is confused, because “[most people already have the "good deeds".]”
Voila the difference:-
Who thinks that through their good deeds will be saved, deceive themselves... (this it's not the way...)
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Who are saved (were born again), demonstrate this by their good deeds.
No I am not confused. You are misunderstanding me. Not once did I even suggest that good deeds will save anyone. I said that everyone, no matter what, does some good things. From an eternal perspective, good deeds have no value unless there is also faith. My point was that for most people the acceptance of Christ means little or no change in lifestyle.
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@ ‘Dropout’. If there aren’t “[changes in lifestyle]”, that faith is a wrong one...
See, for example, those verses:“Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.” (2Corintians 4:16)
“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus3:5)
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—His good, pleasing and perfect will.” (Romans 12:2)
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@unknownuser said:
‘Alan F’wrote: “Stop talking crap, Cornel. You know no such thing.”
OK, mister, I remain silent, because the truth upsets...
Au contraire, mon petit chou. I have no trouble with the truth whatsoever...just with people who mangle it to fit their own preconceived notions of what the truth actually is, or what some scientific illiterates wrote down 3000 years ago.
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@jason_maranto said:
(...) and furthermore these people are just extrapolating data as best they can based on current understanding.
Which is alot more than any theologist is doing. At least science produces results.
Furthermore, I do believe your position on this is quite absurd. You're eager to point out scientific knowledge is limited, and science is propelled forward by fallible men, and you're right to do so, yet somehow things get a little weird after this, as your apparent conclusion is to simply do away with what knowledge we have and substitute it with assumptions for which no factual proof exists. Allopathy has no sure-fire way to treat cancer? Well then, surely the homeopaths must be right.
@jason_maranto said:
Current understanding which is constantly undergoing revision and experts are often wrong -- they are many unexplained mysteries as well. So to conclusively say anything is possible or impossible is to assume everything we "think" is true is actually true.
Science doesn't say anything conclusively - as you yourself point out. And exactly therein lies its worth. Religion, on the other hand, is dead certain about quite a few things.
@jason_maranto said:
At the very least I find the biblical account no less preposterous than any other theory (which BTW if we are being honest almost all science is -- instead of the set in stone fact you are presenting it as).
Lots of science is indeed theory. We make great assumptions all the time - about space, mass, energy, and the activities of photons on their day off. Still, it's not God who makes planes fly.
@jason_maranto said:
I question pretty much everything -- but I'm smart enough to admit when I don't know and just move on.
That sounds reasonable enough. There's only one thing wrong with it: it isn't true. Otherwise you'd be an agnostic. Rather than merely "moving on" you've actively chosen to embrace a certain theory. A theory that, ironically, is much more firmly "set in stone" than any scientific assumption is.
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One of my best friends is a DOM (Doctor of Oriental Medicine, Acupuncturist, Herbal Medicine, etc) He also happens to teach Anatomy and Physiology at 2 schools and has multiple degrees in multiple disciplines. His sister is prominent heart surgeon, his older brother is a double Ph.D. and University Professor.
All that is there just to say that he is no a dummy and is well versed in the scientific facts we currently know of the body -- but he is also a realist enough to know that many things we do not understand and often old "wisdom" still has more power to heal than new technology.
We talk about these things he deals with often, and we also talk about Art, Computers and God -- you would be amazed at how often "Truth" is true in vastly different disciplines when you are operating at a very high level.
I'm also not a dummy, and while I have no interest in proving that here since it serves no purpose other than to soothe my own vanity I will instead play the fool.
As I said before God has used the foolish things to confound the wise (in their own estimation, not in fact)-- but this doesn't invalidate truth. Science is the active discovery of the facts of Gods creation -- and from that point of view I find it very powerful and interesting. I am not excluding scientific knowledge -- I am simply including God into the equation when I consider the limits of human knowledge and our present limited extrapolation of data collected in a absurdly small sample size.
I could point out thousands of simple things we deal with each an every day that we do not understand -- and more importantly how you are actively placing faith in things which you do not personally understand but accept as in-volatile truth. What you are doing is no different than what I am doing. It just appears to have a different veneer to you because it appeals to your intellect and pride in human accomplishment.
I have no pride in human accomplishment -- I see the proof of the truth of Gods word (particularly the 4 gospels and letter of Paul) in everyday life... because at the end of it the Bible tells me more truth about who we are and why we do the things we do than all the psychology in the world. And BTW another good friend of mine that I often speak to as well is a prominent Adlerian and describes himself as a secular humanist... obviously we have lively debates, but he's never won one yet.
The funny thing about truth is you don't have to "believe" it for it to remain true -- facts can and do change as data is reconfigured to allow for previously thought "impossible" scenarios which have forced themselves into our reality. However, ultimately the Bible is not about describing the process of creation or destruction (which it largely glosses over and explains away in simplistic terms as you would explain to a small child) but is very much concerned with "us"... who we are, and who we could be.
Best,
Jason. -
BTW I find the general intended tone of your posts to be deliberately antagonizing, insulting, and inflammatory.
For someone with the supposed moral and mental superiority you are are quick to wallow in behavior not fitting an intellectual debate.
However that too is expected... all it does is prove to me even more clearly your error, which is rooted in pride and fear not knowledge or wisdom.
I wish you well, and I hope you find peace... but I have other places to be and work which needs to be done.
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
obviously we have lively debates, but he's never won one yet.
Of course, because it's not possible to win a debate with a devout christian.
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Facts don't change, Jason. Our model for interpreting those facts might change along with, perhaps, our perception of those facts...but facts themselves are immutable.
Gravity is a fact. Pre-Newton we couldn't explain it at all. Using Newtonian physics, we were then able to picture gravity as anything with a mass attracting anything else with mass towards its centre. This Newtonian model works well enough in most circumstances, but doesn't explain the apparent perturbations of Mercury around the sun.
It wasn't until Einstein's General Theory and the concept that gravity actually warps space-time that our picture of gravity actually synchronised with the observable 'fact'.Throughout all of this, gravity has just gone on its merry way, continuing to be a fact. Even though we can now model it with absolute precision we still can't explain what it really is other than in mathematical terms, nevertheless it remains a fact.
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@jason_maranto said:
BTW I find the general intended tone of your posts to be deliberately antagonizing, insulting, and inflammatory.
For someone with the supposed moral and mental superiority you are are quick to wallow in behavior not fitting an intellectual debate.
However that too is expected... all it does is prove to me even more clearly your error, which is rooted in pride and fear not knowledge or wisdom.
I wish you well, and I hope you find peace... but I have other places to be and work which needs to be done.
Best,
Jason.I could say precisely the same about you, Jason. I'm not the one continually bragging about how smart I am, or how smart my friends are. I too have several PhDs as friends...and my son's an astrophysicist...all of which proves what exactly? That last crack about hoping I find peace is particularly condescending. I have already found peace, but thanks for your feigned concern.
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If I were coming to this without preconcceptions, I would say the rationalists are clearly way ahead in this debate against dogmatic christians. That said, I profess to be Christian, but not in any wacky bible literalism manner. For me, the meaning of the church is the "body of christ" and how we conduct out human interactions with fellow people.
It seems once you take a fundamentalist perspective, any rational consideration of things as plain as the nose on your face goes out the window.
If that makes me a bad christian, so be it. That's your problem. -
@jason_maranto said:
I'm also not a dummy (...)
So far, no-one's accused you of being a 'dummy'. Apart from a purely rhetorical one, there's no reason to keep emphasizing your intellect.
As for that friend of yours ... Newton was an alchemist. He came up with the theory of gravity, but somehow we manage to deter ourselves from believing we can turn lead into gold.
@jason_maranto said:
Science is the active discovery of the facts of Gods creation -- and from that point of view I find it very powerful and interesting. I am not excluding scientific knowledge (...)
But you do denounce its philosophical underpinnings? That, to me, is bizarre. Bear in mind, science isn't just what we know - first and foremost, it's a method.
@jason_maranto said:
I am simply including God into the equation when I consider the limits of human knowledge and our present limited extrapolation of data collected in a absurdly small sample size.
This is where things go weird. You point out there's limits to our knowledge, but you have no qualms about ignoring those exact limits by "simply" assuming there's a God? Don't get me wrong, now. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe what you believe, not in the least, it's just that it seems to me that what you're saying is somehow less rational than you make it out to be.
@jason_maranto said:
I could point out thousands of simple things we deal with each an every day that we do not understand (...)
Yet. We don't understand them yet. And we should try and find out how they work, rather than veer into metaphysics. Just to be on the safe side.
@jason_maranto said:
What you are doing is no different than what I am doing. It just appears to have a different veneer to you because it appeals to your intellect and pride in human accomplishment.
That's a very nice way of calling atheists arrogant and vain. What's that you said about about Alan's posts (or mine - not sure) being 'insulting'?
And no, I don't really take offense. Debates like these are bound to heat things up.
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As for the -rather fundamental- difference between science and religion, this is pretty much how I see it:
Science:
*Given x works as expected, theory y, for the time being, seems, at least in part, valid.
Stay tuned.*
Religion:
*There's stuff. Someone must've made it. Some bloke. Did it in six days, too. Pretty impressive, that. Must be able to do anything. Not like us humans. But then he isn't human. Can't be. Just look at what he can do!
At some point, he did get it on with a human woman. Get this: didn't lay a finger on her, and he still managed to knock her up. Transcendent sperm, baby! Anyway, the son. He's our saviour.
Yeah. From what? Pretty much all the mental attributes his dad gave us. Why'd he given them to us then? Well, the thing you got to understand is, he moves in mysterious ways. Which is fancy speak for: we're to dumb to figure out what he's up to.
Oh yeah: he can do backflips and create solar systems at the same time.
Who's your daddy? WHO IS YOUR DADDY?*
Now I should really do the dishes.
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@unknownuser said:
we're to dumb to figure out what he's up to.
Oh yeah: he can do backflips and create solar systems at the same time.
Who's your daddy? WHO IS YOUR DADDY?[/i]
so name calling and sarcasm will work where rational discussion doesn't? I guess that makes your points that much more valid.
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Lighten up, it was a joke. Besides, I have made a handful of rational points, haven't I?
This all being said, I have no objections against removing my sarcastic post (yes, there's sarcasm in there - but name-calling?) if people find it insulting. Just let me know.
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... gallop gallop gallop...
I suppose I agree generally with your points, but you are coming across super snarky. I still consider "dumb" to be name calling, but eh, well, pick your battles.
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@unknownuser said:
It's pretty mind boggling, particularly when you get into the notion of observation affecting the outcome.
From what I understand the observation factor is merely the most popular hypothesis. There's been on a lot of woo built on that shaky foundation. The same goes for Schrödinger's cat, which was initially intended as a piece of satire.
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@ andybot
You have a point. I do have a polemical streak. I'll try and keep it less snarky. As for the 'we' that are 'too dumb' - I'm in that group, aren't I?Whilst I obviously cannot tell theists how they should feel about what I wrote, they might possibly find some solace in the fact that I am by no means opposed to their right to believe in whatever they choose to.
@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
Lighten up, it was a joke. Besides, I have made a handful of rational points, haven't I?
Yes you have and so have Alan and Tig to name a few, however I have not noticed any rational debate from the pro God crew, is this because you cannot rationally defend fairy tales, lies and stupidity?
Unless bible passage regurgitation and dogma is a defense I clearly see a winner.
Stop leading me into temptation!
Dishes!
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@solo said:
Unless bible passage regurgitation and dogma is a defense I clearly see a winner.
pass the popcorn, hold the dishes... let's see how the true believers respond! -
I guess I wasn't clear as to why I am distracted -- I am on a deadline and I have a complex software to teach so my mental focus is elsewhere... I cannot go blow for blow with every point made so I was speaking in basic generalizations to at least put it out there. I am also not inclined to allow myself to get drawn in by the more mean-spirited qualities of this conversation as I am prone to become a rather big bastard when pushed... and while I have no doubt I could silence the critics with enough time and energy, I have neither. And anyway ultimately it may not open any hearts, and in fact may have the outcome of further hardening hearts.
So since, I don't have the time or energy to see this through properly at this point and rather than do a half-way job I'm excusing myself. Since I never come to this section of the forum and only found this yesterday because Jeff mentioned it in the gallery and I was curious... you should not miss my contribution.
Suffice to say I am a believer -- and I find less incongruity between "science" and the Bible than you do -- but I also allow for more things than you do as possible, so I am not limiting myself to only discussing what we currently know as "fact".
I honestly do hope you find peace -- the alternative is not very pretty and it is completely needless to end up that way due to the Grace of God... nothing is needed but faith.
As a last aside: Gravity is a bit of sticky subject because while we do "appear" to have a handle on this subject here, when you get down to the quantum level things get much stranger in relation to gravity -- this is one of the things which string theory attempts to resolve ( as one of the purported theories of everything). However there are several competing ideas being thrown out that either downgrade or completely discard the theory of general relativity... so it is not so cut and dry. But again as I say I do not have the time or energy to dig into these subjects properly for the next 8 weeks.
Now I must attempt to successfully try to pry myself away from this distraction and get back to work.
Best,
Jason.
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