Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
-
I question pretty much everything -- but I'm smart enough to admit when I don't know and just move on. Life is too short and I've got much better things to dwell on -- this has very little to do with anything as Brodie has already said. I just consider it a fun diversion.
Best,
Jason. -
It's not really a cop-out I just know when I'm outclassed (by God, not you).
A couple Bible quotes to back that up and then I'm off to bed:
1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;So what I am saying is at my very wisest I an no smarter than God at his most foolish moment... it would be the worst type of vanity for me to assume I know better or even that I could figure it out. In the same way a fire ant has no way of conceiving the purposes you have for the things you do -- or even how you do them.
Best,
Jason. -
‘Alan F’wrote: “Stop talking crap, Cornel. You know no such thing.”
OK, mister, I remain silent, because the truth upsets...
-
@unknownuser said:
‘Alan F’wrote: “Stop talking crap, Cornel. You know no such thing.”
OK, mister, I remain silent, because the truth upsets...
Your version of the truth, you mean.
-
@ ’Dropout’. Expression „version of the truth” ia an absurdity...
We find the TRUTH revealed in God's Word (in the Bible), so, study it carefully, if you want to know in what world you live!
-
So the people of Omachron Persei 8 are supposed to buy into the teachings of the Bible despite the fact that they cannot relate to its teachings on any level?
-
@unknownuser said:
@ ’Dropout’. Expression „version of the truth” ia an absurdity...
We find the TRUTH revealed in God's Word (in the Bible), so, study it carefully, if you want to know in what world you live!
Oh, I have studied it carefully for many years.
There are two things, faith and theology. Faith is that Jesus died for our sins. That's not negotiable. Theology is everything else, how long did it take for God to create the world, are all unbelievers going to Hell, women in ecclesiastical office, homosexuality etc. These are subject to study and negotiation.
The Bible teaches that salvation is dependent on only one thing: belief that Jesus is Saviour. That's all. There are no other catches, secret handshakes, financial requirements. Nothing else. To suggest otherwise is in error. You may believe in a young earth, I don't. It doesn't matter since it's not a salvation issue.
As we go into the world, we need to bring only one message and that is that God loves everyone no matter what, not beat people over the head with our particular brand of theology.
-
’Dropout’ wrote: “[The Bible teaches that salvation is dependent on only one thing: belief that Jesus is Saviour. That's all.]”
You are wrong, mister ’Dropout’..., because of this:
“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the DEMONS believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?” (James 2:19-20)
-
I like how cornel argues everyone... believers or not.
nobody is right.. nobody is going to heaven.. except cornelIm beginning to think cornel is actually god.
-
@unknownuser said:
’Dropout’ wrote: “[The Bible teaches that salvation is dependent on only one thing: belief that Jesus is Saviour. That's all.]”
You are wrong, mister ’Dropout’..., because of this:
“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the DEMONS believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?” (James 2:19-20)
That is true BUT the intent here is to say that we cannot use faith as a "get out of jail free" card.
Also, most people already have the "good deeds". Everyone, no matter how depraved, does some things that are good.
When believers fight over theology Satan laughs because it means we're not doing what we need to be doing which is showing God's love to the world.
And solo, I'm Canadian too.
-
@ ‘Jeff H’. I do not say that “nobody is going to heaven” (you said...), but quite the contrary...
I assumed that you know verses undiscussed...!
Voila an example:“As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13)
-
‘Dropout’ is confused, because “[most people already have the "good deeds".]”
Voila the difference:-
Who thinks that through their good deeds will be saved, deceive themselves... (this it's not the way...)
-
Who are saved (were born again), demonstrate this by their good deeds.
-
-
@unknownuser said:
@ ‘Jeff H’. I do not say that “nobody is going to heaven” (you said...), but quite the contrary...
I assumed that you know verses undiscussed...!
Voila an example:“As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13)
sorry dude.. i don't even know what you're talking about or attempting to say..
and i'm trying.i didn't mean nobody as in nobody on the planet earth is going to heaven.. i know at least 5 people out there that you are going to let in because they act just like you (one of them is in my immediate family)... i meant - you're not going to let anyone in this thread pass through the pearly gates.. or maybe you will? make a quick little list of those in this thread that are going to heaven..
-
@solo said:
So when you question something that sounds ridiculous and you do not find an answer you just accept and move on? I do not think that is smart at all.
To me it's kind of like the double slit experiment which I'm sure you're familiar with (if you haven't seen this version though it's a MUST see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc ). It's pretty mind boggling, particularly when you get into the notion of observation affecting the outcome. Really all of that quantum physics stuff is mind boggling. And I find it fascinating to peruse the various theories that scientists have come up with to explain the results as well as theories about what those results mean for other areas of science.
I think for me (and it would seem for Jason as well), this is somewhat analogous to how the Noah story is. It's interesting to research and debate different theories on how it may have occurred as well as to postulate how each of those theories might affect our broader worldview and theology. But in the end, no matter how ridiculous the story may sound on its face, it's enough to simply know that it happened. Except in this case, having both historical and literary aspects rather than repeatable scientific ones, we must also ask what the "it" was that happened or even if the original author believed "it" happened at all or if he was merely relaying a point to his audience.
It's all very intriguing but in the end what would need to be proven isn't whether or not the flood could have happened, because if we allow for God then the answer is yes (no matter if that seems like a cheat to the atheist or not). Instead what would need to be proved is that there's no God, or at least not one who would have so intervened. And that's where I come back to the resurrection in particular, not that it's the sole evidence for God but I find it to be the crux of the matter on which the Christian faith rests.
-Brodie
-
@unknownuser said:
‘Dropout’ is confused, because “[most people already have the "good deeds".]”
Voila the difference:-
Who thinks that through their good deeds will be saved, deceive themselves... (this it's not the way...)
-
Who are saved (were born again), demonstrate this by their good deeds.
No I am not confused. You are misunderstanding me. Not once did I even suggest that good deeds will save anyone. I said that everyone, no matter what, does some good things. From an eternal perspective, good deeds have no value unless there is also faith. My point was that for most people the acceptance of Christ means little or no change in lifestyle.
-
-
@ ‘Dropout’. If there aren’t “[changes in lifestyle]”, that faith is a wrong one...
See, for example, those verses:“Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.” (2Corintians 4:16)
“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus3:5)
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—His good, pleasing and perfect will.” (Romans 12:2)
-
@unknownuser said:
‘Alan F’wrote: “Stop talking crap, Cornel. You know no such thing.”
OK, mister, I remain silent, because the truth upsets...
Au contraire, mon petit chou. I have no trouble with the truth whatsoever...just with people who mangle it to fit their own preconceived notions of what the truth actually is, or what some scientific illiterates wrote down 3000 years ago.
-
@jason_maranto said:
(...) and furthermore these people are just extrapolating data as best they can based on current understanding.
Which is alot more than any theologist is doing. At least science produces results.
Furthermore, I do believe your position on this is quite absurd. You're eager to point out scientific knowledge is limited, and science is propelled forward by fallible men, and you're right to do so, yet somehow things get a little weird after this, as your apparent conclusion is to simply do away with what knowledge we have and substitute it with assumptions for which no factual proof exists. Allopathy has no sure-fire way to treat cancer? Well then, surely the homeopaths must be right.
@jason_maranto said:
Current understanding which is constantly undergoing revision and experts are often wrong -- they are many unexplained mysteries as well. So to conclusively say anything is possible or impossible is to assume everything we "think" is true is actually true.
Science doesn't say anything conclusively - as you yourself point out. And exactly therein lies its worth. Religion, on the other hand, is dead certain about quite a few things.
@jason_maranto said:
At the very least I find the biblical account no less preposterous than any other theory (which BTW if we are being honest almost all science is -- instead of the set in stone fact you are presenting it as).
Lots of science is indeed theory. We make great assumptions all the time - about space, mass, energy, and the activities of photons on their day off. Still, it's not God who makes planes fly.
@jason_maranto said:
I question pretty much everything -- but I'm smart enough to admit when I don't know and just move on.
That sounds reasonable enough. There's only one thing wrong with it: it isn't true. Otherwise you'd be an agnostic. Rather than merely "moving on" you've actively chosen to embrace a certain theory. A theory that, ironically, is much more firmly "set in stone" than any scientific assumption is.
-
One of my best friends is a DOM (Doctor of Oriental Medicine, Acupuncturist, Herbal Medicine, etc) He also happens to teach Anatomy and Physiology at 2 schools and has multiple degrees in multiple disciplines. His sister is prominent heart surgeon, his older brother is a double Ph.D. and University Professor.
All that is there just to say that he is no a dummy and is well versed in the scientific facts we currently know of the body -- but he is also a realist enough to know that many things we do not understand and often old "wisdom" still has more power to heal than new technology.
We talk about these things he deals with often, and we also talk about Art, Computers and God -- you would be amazed at how often "Truth" is true in vastly different disciplines when you are operating at a very high level.
I'm also not a dummy, and while I have no interest in proving that here since it serves no purpose other than to soothe my own vanity I will instead play the fool.
As I said before God has used the foolish things to confound the wise (in their own estimation, not in fact)-- but this doesn't invalidate truth. Science is the active discovery of the facts of Gods creation -- and from that point of view I find it very powerful and interesting. I am not excluding scientific knowledge -- I am simply including God into the equation when I consider the limits of human knowledge and our present limited extrapolation of data collected in a absurdly small sample size.
I could point out thousands of simple things we deal with each an every day that we do not understand -- and more importantly how you are actively placing faith in things which you do not personally understand but accept as in-volatile truth. What you are doing is no different than what I am doing. It just appears to have a different veneer to you because it appeals to your intellect and pride in human accomplishment.
I have no pride in human accomplishment -- I see the proof of the truth of Gods word (particularly the 4 gospels and letter of Paul) in everyday life... because at the end of it the Bible tells me more truth about who we are and why we do the things we do than all the psychology in the world. And BTW another good friend of mine that I often speak to as well is a prominent Adlerian and describes himself as a secular humanist... obviously we have lively debates, but he's never won one yet.
The funny thing about truth is you don't have to "believe" it for it to remain true -- facts can and do change as data is reconfigured to allow for previously thought "impossible" scenarios which have forced themselves into our reality. However, ultimately the Bible is not about describing the process of creation or destruction (which it largely glosses over and explains away in simplistic terms as you would explain to a small child) but is very much concerned with "us"... who we are, and who we could be.
Best,
Jason. -
BTW I find the general intended tone of your posts to be deliberately antagonizing, insulting, and inflammatory.
For someone with the supposed moral and mental superiority you are are quick to wallow in behavior not fitting an intellectual debate.
However that too is expected... all it does is prove to me even more clearly your error, which is rooted in pride and fear not knowledge or wisdom.
I wish you well, and I hope you find peace... but I have other places to be and work which needs to be done.
Best,
Jason.
Advertisement