Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@solo said:
@box said:
I'm not really sure what your video has to do with the subject of this thread but it did lead me to this rather interesting Christian viewpoint.
Freakazoid!
Lentil season? Everyone sits around and eats lentil soup? Japanese are Buddhist, Shinto, and Christian with a few atheists thrown in to round out the mix. Humor or lunacy or lunatic humor? -
@michaliszissiou said:
What I've noticed on this thread:
Some people act like having the obligation to declare their faith. That's too bad... tooooo bad. Sorry.
Please, make sure that your religion is a matter between you and God only.That makes sense from a non-Christian point of view but you have to understand that Christians believe others are missing out on something great, at best, or in eternal danger, at worst. From that point of view it's like suggesting your neighbor just keep it to themselves when they come over to make sure you know your house is on fire. Penn of Penn and Teller fame, who's a devout atheist makes a good point on this in saying he's highly in favor of people sharing their faith and welcomes the discussions. If they believe it, it would be immoral not to share it.
Besides, this is a thread about God. It would be a bit different if it was a thread about ThomThom's latest cleanup ruby.
-Brodie
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@michaliszissiou said:
Please, make sure that your religion is a matter between you and your God only.
Mike, when you start a post like this next time, you may want to provide a little prerequisite like this one. And don't forget the 'YOUR'....
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Utiler, between you and God only. Not your God. This between/only is more than enough.
Actually, it's the second time I post it, A Wittgenstein's quote. Not mine.
In my opinion:
All this debate here is about this question: Is there a purpose in the universe?
IMO, it isn't about who/what created everything. In any case, it seems that universe is created from nothing, before the existence of time.
But, do we find a purpose in this universe? Do we find a purpose in our existence? Is this what we call "spirit/soul"? In the end, is this what christians call it "Word"?
Here, I have a little problem. Reading the first lines from the Gospel of John. Originally written in greek language, so Logos is translated as Word.
I'm not sure how right this is... maybe. -
Did God create the universe?
Personally I believe he did weather it took 7 days or 7 billion years I don’t know and I/we may never know. The Bible says in Revelation I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Do I understand that, no? How can that be, does time even exists to him? Does this mean he created everything or just Earth? I often ask myself, if God knows all things, past, present and future then where does my free will stand. He knows the sins I will commit tomorrow and so on. With all the things I don’t and may never understand or know for sure about my faith still stands strong. To me that’s why it’s called faith. The question asked here will never be answered, at least while living. The only sure thing is we all will find out the truth we seek on the day our end comes. I’m a proud believer regardless. -
@unknownuser said:
I often ask myself, if God knows all things, past, present and future then where does my free will stand.
How do you understand the concept of free will then? Does it even have to exist for our lives to be as they are?
I personally don't believe in any deity or other sorts of superstition, just because of simple logic:
-I have never encountered such things and I find a great deal of consistency in the way science shows the origin of our existence and simply said: it works
-All arguments I have seen for the existence of the supernatural have been successfully refuted
-I have always found a reasonable answer for anything I don't know yet once I have searched for it.I believe theists trust lies in a similar logic, but the part that is different is the criteria in witch they judge evidence and how they understand the meaning of words. So basically most rational discussions just end with an agreement of a disagreement with the conclusion that the existence of a deity or a supernatural phenomenon can't be proven by evidence that is approved by the other or explained in words without distorting others accepted meaning of them.
You can't convince another if you don't have a common ground to stand on. So if one claims there is a god then he must be prepared to defend his belief in a court of law and by applying the scientific method. This attempt has failed countless times already. On the other hand, if one wants to prove there is no god, then he must be prepared to fight in the imaginary realm of religion, where the rules of logic and reason do not apply, rendering the discussion itself a pointless task of mental masturbation.Some questions discussed here are nicely summed up in quotes of Victor J Stenger in this site
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/stenger.htmIt kind of hurts to see so many of our forum members turning against each other because of such a stupid subject matter like this, so I would like to guide you to a speech by Christopher Hitchens, a truly great man who just recently passed away, that tells about the discussions that we really have worth having.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgIcJb8i4m8 -
@speaker said:
So if one claims there is a god then he must be prepared to defend his belief in a court of law and by applying the scientific method.
Have you ever loved anyone? If so I challenge you to prove it in the manner you specified.
@speaker said:
It kind of hurts to see so many of our forum members turning against each other because of such a stupid subject matter like this,...
I don't see members turning against each other, I see a passionate discussion.
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@unknownuser said:
@speaker said:
So if one claims there is a god then he must be prepared to defend his belief in a court of law and by applying the scientific method.
Have you ever loved anyone? If so I challenge you to prove it in the manner you specified.
Nah. Look at it this way: given all the evidence you've almost certainly compiled over the years (photos, videos, deeds, certificates), and the witnesses there have been in all that time, you'd have a very hard time to prove you do not love your wife, or have at least done so for a certain period of time.
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Nah, one could cite many cases where the husband or wife lived a "full" life with their spouse & family with the same amount of evidence only to either snap one day and kill the whole family or have been found out to have lived a double life.
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Or I may just gather information about my hormone levels, and make a detailed analysis of the many chemical reactions in my brain that caused the emotion you call love. But I'm neither a scientist or am I qualified to do so. I don't see the sense for me to attempt to trivialize the cause of such a complex emotion when there is already scientific research done in this field. Again we come to the question that we may understand the word love differently, and even if I'd give you a perfectly good scientific explanation, should you care if you only believed in the spiritual meaning of love?
@unknownuser said:
I don't see members turning against each other, I see a passionate discussion.
Well then lets try to keep this passion only inside the corner bar.
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@speaker said:
Well then lets try to keep this passion only inside the corner bar.
What do you mean by that?
@speaker said:
Or I may just gather information about my hormone levels, and make a detailed analysis of the many chemical reactions in my brain that caused the emotion you call love. But I'm neither a scientist or am I qualified to do so. I don't see the sense for me to attempt to trivialize the cause of such a complex emotion when there is already scientific research done in this field.
Measuring hormone levels or chemical reactions to prove love is a flawed arguement. For example: if your leg is severed in a car accident your body chemicals change drastically. Does this mean you no longer love? I don't believe it does.
@speaker said:
Again we come to the question that we may understand the word love differently, and even if I'd give you a perfectly good scientific explanation, should you care if you only believed in the spiritual meaning of love?
To clarify, I am talking about love for another human being, I.E. your wife, husband, daughter, son, etc...
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@unknownuser said:
Measuring hormone levels or chemical reactions to prove love is a flawed arguement. For example: if your leg is severed in a car accident your body chemicals change drastically. Does this mean you no longer love? I don't believe it does.
I don't quite understand your example, wouldn't the agonizing pain just overcome other emotions? Wouldn't an adrenalin rush be more useful for your survival then some emphatic feelings for your crashed car? How about the cases when you have an amnesia, you can lose all your memories, emphatic feelings, emotions and "the spiritual bounds" that connect you with your loved ones to the point that they seem like complete strangers to you. Does your soul have an amnesia too?
How do you recognize that someone is in love then? Do we look for Cupids arrow up their ass and the butterflies? How could you prove that someone else is in love if he does not admit it?
What if we observe a thousand couples that say their in love and analyse their brain activity at their reunion and when meeting a complete stranger. If after these observations you can spot a common and consistent pattern for the different cases, then can you conclude that certain patterns in the brain activity can be linked to hormone level change and appearance of certain emotions like love?
If this research is consistent with a thousand more from many fields of science and is successfully repeated by others, then why would anyone still believe in any superstitious answers if science can give you a rational explanation?
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@speaker said:
I don't quite understand your example...
Let me try to better explain what I meant. You stated: "... I may just gather information about my hormone levels, and make a detailed analysis of the many chemical reactions in my brain that caused the emotion you call love."
If there was a chemical signature identified for love it would not be present 24/7. Brain activity varies greatly between sleep and awake, it is not a constant. While sleeping or in a car crash your hormones and chemical reactions would vary. So where did the love go? Do I stop loving my daughter if I cut my thumb and adrenaline is rushing through my system or if I am asleep and dreaming? Absolutely not.
Therefore a chemical signature is a flawed argument for the existence of love.@speaker said:
What if we observe a thousand couples that say their in love and analyse their brain activity at their reunion and when meeting a complete stranger. If after these observations you can spot a common and consistent pattern for the different cases, then can you conclude that certain patterns in the brain activity can be linked to hormone level change and appearance of certain emotions like love?
If this research is consistent with a thousand more from many fields of science and is successfully repeated by others, then why would anyone still believe in any superstitious answers if science can give you a rational explanation?
Those are what if statements. Has this been done? I would like to see the results.
Also, would that not just be a chemical response during face recognition, fading away when meeting the stranger. Again, would the love for the other person then stop when the chemistry changed?What if you applied a similar experiment to thousands of Muslims talking about Allah, or Jews talking about God? What if then there was the same evidence of a pattern, consistent and repeatable, would this then conclude the existence of a higher power?
My point is, Love is no more provable than the existence of God. If one can't prove scientifically without a shadow of doubt that they love their child does that make them delusional? I don't think so. Christians, Buddhists, Agnostics, Atheists, etc. all express love in some form or another. I know some Atheists who show just as much love and compassion for their fellow man than theists do. Well we can't prove that love exists so are they just as crazy as the rest of us? Maybe so.
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@solo said:
If you get alzheimer's and forget god/jesus/holy ghost, are you still a christian?
I believe so, yes. Alzheimer's is a progressive, degenerative disorder that attacks the brain. In short your brain is dying. If you forget the sandwich you had for lunch does that mean it did not exist? No. If you forget your belief because your brain is dying does that mean you never believed? No.
You may have forgotten God but he has not forgotten you. -
a bunch of cavemen that can just barely make it off their planet in their eensy weensey little speck of existence -- not even knowing whatwhenhowwhy or anything else about the universe or if there is even a universe to begin with... sitting around arguing about whether or not god (or 1 of the few hundred thousands of humans' gods) created the universe..
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I have been able to distill my previous post.
God did not create the universe, it is the universe and the universe is god.
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@unknownuser said:
God did not create the universe, it is the universe and the universe is god.
If god is the universe then who/what created god-universe?
Boofredlay's example on love is great.
Who created time? Universe? Existence?
Why? What's the purpose?
Who created "My" God? Why I exist?
Do I have a soul?
In a universe that everything is living and dying, to make space for a new birth, is there anything immortal?
There's probably a death, hidden behind the birth of the universe and scientists will find it, sooner or later.
Or... this bigbang created death... which is equal.
I have strong evidences on this.
Once again.
We're talking about the purpose of the existence.
About god, immortality, life.
Avoiding the word death,
Let's talk about love then, is it immortal? Who cares. Is love just a warm feeling? We can't live without it. Can we?
It's the only think we can do, after all. That's the spirit.What frightens me?
"for the people made their recollection fit in with their sufferings..."
THE HISTORY OF THE PELOPONNESIAN WAR
By Thucydides 431 BC -
Boofredlay
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Because you can ask a question it doesn't make it valid.
So presuming the universe had a creator leapfrogs over the initial question that ought to be asked first - was the universe created ?
If the universe 'just happened' spontaneously then there's no valid question about who [or what] created it.Similarly your second question - what's the purpose ? [of the universe]
This too assumes there is a purpose that we could discover if only we searched hard enough.
However, if there is simply 'no purpose' and the universe just 'is', without any intent or deeper meaning, then again that question is not needed...You can ask a question like, 'Do I have a soul?', because that is at a relatively base level - you might not be able to answer it with any certainty though. But then a trap question like, 'Did God give me my soul?' presupposes things - like that you have a soul and there is God who might have given you it...
It's a classic "Have you stopped beating your wife?" type of question [where you must answer only 'Yes' or 'No' !]... Whatever your answer it is trapped by the question itself - unless you are allowed to give a properly expansive answer, that in turn redefines the question itself; which of course should have been in at least two steps, more like, "Do you beat your wife? If you answered 'Yes', have you now stopped doing so ?"
So to recast the question into steps...
"Was the universe created?" [stop if NO/DON'T KNOW]
"Is there a God?" [stop if NO/DON'T KNOW]
"Did God create the universe?" [YES/NO/DON'T KNOW !]Obvious answer is 'I don't know.' [andI don't care!]
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Boofredlay
Nope, I still cant find logic in what you say. Your examples seem backward and your conclusion makes no sense to me.
If you can't relate to non-believers with terms outside your personal reality, then how could we ever come to a common conclusion?You say you can't prove love, but can you define it? Can you prove something that is undefinable? What is the point of doing so then?
Here is the first article I could find about the scientific explanation of love:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/clairemcloughlincolumn1.htm/
I believe there are tons of peer reviewed scientific articles out there that explain love in other ways, but do you ever look for them? Or are you just satisfied with the impermeable truth your faith provides?
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