Google is Listening!

Khai

@khai said:

what I would love to know from the SU team is this.
Why Collada over OBJ in the free edition? or in general?

Quite simply, COLLADA is a modern, open and extensible format which lives and breathes for asset exchange. I've got no problem with .OBJ per se, but it isn't as capable as COLLADA. It certainly is older, and this means that it is more likely to be supported by a wider range of apps. But I don't see how it is fundamentally better as an exchange format.

john
.

but no one's using Collada!
everyone's using OBJ.

put it this way. OBJ is better...because ppl are using it. Collada maybe technically better on paper.. but if no one's using it.. it's not better.

right now, to use a Collada model I have to take the DAE into Softimage Mod Tools, save out as a FBX then take the FBX into Wings3D where I can then take it to OBJ...which everything else reads without problems.

take a look. do your own research and you'll see the problem. many apps are writing DAE.. but only a few - SU is one - that reads it...

it's comical!

jbacus

@bob james said:

I find OBJ export, but I don't find OBJ Importin SU8 Pro. Am I missing something basic?

That's correct- SketchUp does not have an OBJ importer, and it never has. While it is tempting to think of import and export as being symmetrical processes, in fact they are not. An importer is considerably more complex/difficult to maintain than an exporter.

john
.

Khai

sorry that was my slip up while getting excited. used to having apps (trueSpace mainly, where I learnt to model) having import/export as the usual way of doing things.

brodie

@unknownuser said:

@ladybugz said:

Google is listening

Carolyn,

I want to apologize to you beforehand if my reply is going to sound a bit blunt, but reading these forums daily and most recently the response to Eight I feel something needs to be said. I realize I am not the best person to point this out given I started this website to support this product 5 years ago come September 9th, but as a supporter you need to be honest too.

I don't know how to say this in a 'nice' way but this morning when I saw this post by what appeared to be from a Google staff member, I could not believe it. People filled out Google's questionnaire, about what features are highest on their wish list some time ago. Almost none of the features that were on that list have made it into version 8. Now it may have been the case that when that list was concluded, that there was already a feature freeze for Eight, but come on, any modern day 3D application has 64 Bit support and most certainly supports more than 4 Gb of memory.

I don't understand Google. And I am speaking directly to them, certainly not the @Last core group that is still present to this day. In the days of @Last Software, if several people had the same feature request, the development team would deliver. Google says it listens, but can you honestly say this is the case?

It's hard for me to say this, given I have always backed every release since version 4. I was there when Pro users were slamming the Six release, defending it to the end. I was there when Seven came out and the same thing happened all over again. Even though I felt those two releases had good feature sets, I could not entirely disagree with the dismay of some Pro users.

Now Eight has come along and I just can't do the same anymore. Quite frankly speaking I find this post an insult for all of those people that voted in the aforementioned questionnaire. I can't speak for other people, but I can imagine if you have filled out that questionnaire last year you must feel like a complete idiot right now. You can not post something like that, then a year or so later release a product which has almost none of the features included. And when Google responds to the 64 Bit question with "What's the use of it?", you know just how well it listens.

I am not in the business of grilling the SketchUp people. I love you guys to death. After the two last releases I really believed you guys would have learned some key things about this community, about your customers. I am sorry to say that this is not the case and I honestly fear the worst. I can't speak for others, but I for one am not going to fill out another questionnaire or similar. Google already has all the answers it needs. Asking for the same thing twice is just silly.

+1 Coen, you've said it better than I could.

Google, you already have all the suggestions you need. Implement some of those and get back to us with v8.1, then we'll give you some more

-Brodie

jbacus

@khai said:

but no one's using Collada!
everyone's using OBJ.

I think you have to define 'everyone.' What, precisely, is the workflow that you are trying to use? Where to you want your SketchUp model to end up, and for what purpose?

john
.

Khai

@jbacus said:

@khai said:

but no one's using Collada!
everyone's using OBJ.

I think you have to define 'everyone.' What, precisely, is the workflow that you are trying to use? Where to you want your SketchUp model to end up, and for what purpose?

john
.

I make Poser content as a base, but which it being OBJ can be loaded into any application that supports OBJ. eg Maya, Lightwave, Cinema4D, Max, Hexagon, Carrara, Vue, Softimage, Blender, Wings3D, .... the list goes on. of those apps only Softimage, Max.. I think Maya and Cinema read DAE. and even then it's not guaranteed as supported as OBJ. infact for UVmapping work the 2 major UVapps UVlayout and UVmapper only support OBJ!

but from your answers I'm not holding out much hope of getting the point across.

brodie

I think the OBJ vs. COLLADA issue is a bit of a red herring argument. I'm not a big OBJ user but it seems to me that the point shouldn't be OBJ or COLLADA and which one should be included. There's a simple solution which is to just include both. COLLADA can be there in all it's glory for when people eventually (presumably) understand it's wonders and advantages but in the meantime OBJ could be there for people who can't quite wait until the world come around to using COLLADA.

-Brodie

Khai

@unknownuser said:

I think the OBJ vs. COLLADA issue is a bit of a red herring argument. I'm not a big OBJ user but it seems to me that the point shouldn't be OBJ or COLLADA and which one should be included. There's a simple solution which is to just include both. COLLADA can be there in all it's glory for when people eventually (presumably) understand it's wonders and advantages but in the meantime OBJ could be there for people who can't quite wait until the world come around to using COLLADA.

-Brodie

YES thank you !

Phil Rader AIA

I know Ron Popeil has invented many multi function devices like the pocket fisherman etc. and the Swiss Army knife should be in everyones camping gear, but seriously in todays day and age no one application will meet "everyones" varied needs. Sketchup will certainly NOT meet everyones needs and by the many comments here it is apparent that Many people have and use many other applications 3DStudio MAX, Maya, Blender, Cinema4d, Rhino, Softimage, XSI, Modo, ETC. ETC. ETC. as modeling software and the litany of rendering engines is growing daily, many of which are available as plug ins for Sketchup. The third party developers have written a plethora of ruby plugins and extensions for sketchup that ostensibly extend the functionality of Sketchup well beyond what anyone could have imagined just 3 years ago. We have numerous developers, technical supporters, and past @Last employees and current Google employees who visit and comment here in this private user forum. Sketchup is still by far the simplest 3d modeling application to use and with the free version and the GLOBAL user base the SKP file format is becoming a household name. Let's temper our comments and remember that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence. I made a post on the original SketchUP user forum Eight years ago which essentially went something like this "SketchUP has forever changed the way I produce and present my work to my clients" I am still using it nearly on daily basis and if you look at any recent architectural magazine that shows an architects proposed solution for XYZ project the likelihood that the image was in some way produced with SketchUP is high.

So ask yourself are you looking for SketchUP to replace 3dStudio Max or Softimage or Maya? It will never do that. Are there free applications out there that do compete on a functional level with the BIG ones YES Blender, Truespace etc. Lets be thankful for the recent additions in SU8, Let's be respectful when requesting software improvements. and Let's enjoy the software for all of the things that it does right which allows it to maintain it's place in our tool bag. Go and take a look at your tool chest I bet you have a hammer, a drill, some screw drivers, some pliers, some wrenches etc. Each of those tools serves a specific function. SketchUP is a tool and should only be one tool in your tool bag If you are serious about your craft you will find the best tool for each task and use that one. Use SketchUP where it is the best tool and use other applications where they are better.

Just my 2cents..

EscapeArtist

@unknownuser said:

@rickgraham said:

My opinions -

Last, but not least for me - you just can't take away features from the free version! It's just wrong. Perhaps by keeping them in and ENHANCING them in the paid version would entice users to upgrade to the paid version. I highly recommend the 'How to win friends and influence people' book.

Is this correct? Features were taken out of the free version of 8?

+2

Exactly which features were removed from 7 to 8?

Ross Macintosh

@unknownuser said:

I know Ron Popeil ... Just my 2cents.

Phil - I agree with your words. Hope you'll make the next BaseCamp. You were missed at the recent one.

Regards, Ross

brodie

@unknownuser said:

So ask yourself are you looking for SketchUP to replace 3dStudio Max or Softimage or Maya? It will never do that. Are there free applications out there that do compete on a functional level with the BIG ones YES Blender, Truespace etc. Lets be thankful for the recent additions in SU8, Let's be respectful when requesting software improvements. and Let's enjoy the software for all of the things that it does right which allows it to maintain it's place in our tool bag. Go and take a look at your tool chest I bet you have a hammer, a drill, some screw drivers, some pliers, some wrenches etc. Each of those tools serves a specific function. SketchUP is a tool and should only be one tool in your tool bag If you are serious about your craft you will find the best tool for each task and use that one. Use SketchUP where it is the best tool and use other applications where they are better.

Just my 2cents..

Phil,

Well put. I think that there are those who may be asking too much of SU. Certainlythere are those who are asking too much from the free version. However, I do believe that there are a lot of requests which are quite reasonably within the scope of SU that are continually ignored. I believe that is the true frustration behind many of the comments. Google asks for suggestions and people pour forth with thought out rational requests both small and large. Then Google responds with a couple bug fixes, removes a feature, and adds some features that no one was looking for (in v7 it was dynamic blocks and in v8 it's the additional GE compatibility). Then Google comes back and asks us for more suggestions? It's like going to Subway and everytime you ask for mayo they give you lettuce and ask 'what else would you like?'

I think you make a good point that SU is one tool among many we should/must use. However, the way you describe it is pretty unique to SU users in a sense. If I'm going fishing, I need many tools (fishing pole, tackle, pliers, etc.), but I shouldn't need multiple fishing poles, for example, unless my needs are very specific. Similarly, if I'm presenting a 3d model I may need Pen/Paper (for design), AutoCAD (for 2d dimensioning), SU (for modeling), and Layout/Photoshop/Video editing software (for presentation). However, we shouldn't necessarily expect that we'll need to use multiple modeling softwares unless our needs are very specific (Zbrush for organic modeling perhaps). Being able to work on high poly models and the like aren't really what I'd consider specific (or specialized) uses and those are the things which are most requested.

-Brodie

jason_maranto

Man, all the whining going on you'd think that Sketchup costs money... In my mind the only people who have a right to gripe is the Sketchup Pro users and Ruby Plugin developers.

For all you users who want to gripe about the normal FREE version of Sketchup not being whatever you think it should be: Why don't you create something so useful and extensible as Sketchup(very unlikely) and then give it away for free, and see how magnanimous you feel when the unwashed masses come to your door bearing pitchforks demanding your head.

It's FREE! how ungrateful can you be?

Sketchup Pro users please disregard this message as it is not aimed at you.

Best,
Jason.

jbacus

@unknownuser said:

Google, you already have all the suggestions you need. Implement some of those and get back to us with v8.1, then we'll give you some more

Of the top ten suggestions from last fall's "Product Ideas" series, we implemented (or at least improved) about half in SU8– including Boolean modeling tools, color snapshots from Google Earth, and angular dimensions. We also improved toolbars and laid groundwork for poché in section cuts. Don't let the opportunity to pitch your ideas again pass by without our hearing your voice.

john
.

jbacus

@khai said:

I make Poser content as a base, but which it being OBJ can be loaded into any application that supports OBJ. eg Maya, Lightwave, Cinema4D, Max, Hexagon, Carrara, Vue, Softimage, Blender, Wings3D, .... the list goes on. of those apps only Softimage, Max.. I think Maya and Cinema read DAE. and even then it's not guaranteed as supported as OBJ. infact for UVmapping work the 2 major UVapps UVlayout and UVmapper only support OBJ!

but from your answers I'm not holding out much hope of getting the point across.

I think I get your point just fine. So what you want to do is make models in Poser that can be loaded into a SketchUp scene? According to this page (http://poser.smithmicro.com/poserpro.html) Poser Pro 2010 supports COLLADA import/export.

john
.

brodie

@jbacus said:

@unknownuser said:

Google, you already have all the suggestions you need. Implement some of those and get back to us with v8.1, then we'll give you some more

Of the top ten suggestions from last fall's "Product Ideas" series, we implemented (or at least improved) about half in SU8– including Boolean modeling tools, color snapshots from Google Earth, and angular dimensions. We also improved toolbars and laid groundwork for poché in section cuts. Don't let the opportunity to pitch your ideas again pass by without our hearing your voice.

john
.

I had to do a search to find the top ten list. I found your threads at the SU help forum (http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/sketchup/label?lid=6921451b4657bdbb&hl=en). For others wondering, here it is. They seem to be in no particular order (* means it got some attention in v8)...

Angular Dimensions*
Realtime lighting
Improve Layers
Improve toolbars*
Ruby plugin manager
Filled section cuts
Boolean tools*
Faster performance
Color snapshot from Google Earth*
??? (I only found 9 threads)

I didn't see any mention of why these were the top ten though. Were they the most requested? The ones SU thought were the best? I think it's a pretty good list personally (there are some things on there I don't care about but I think they're all improvements to the program and could understand why people might want them) and assuming there is some legit reason why those particular things got on the top ten (bool tools surprises me but I wasn't the one doing the polling. And UV mapping didn't make the list? Perhaps I missed it.) it's good to see that you did respond to several of those issues. It's encouraging to see some things on that list and hope that they may be answered in the future as the others have been.

I wonder, in light of this info - as we, then, continue to make suggestions, is it any good to keep harping on things like poly count, speed, ruby integrations, etc. since they're already on the list? I guess I could think of some other things but it feels like until these big ticket issues are knocked off the list it seems superfluous to bring up smaller issues (lest you spend your time on the small issues rather than tackling the big ones, as I'm afraid I personally feel seems to have happened with this major release).

-Brodie

brodie

By the way, John, I really appreciate you discussing these topics here. Had I known about the series of threads you'd created over at SU Help Forums I may have commented but there's really not a whole lot going on over there (as evidenced by the number of replies which were made to those threads). I hope that the interactions you've begun to make with us here are the beginning of many more in the future. I've no doubt that had you made those same threads here on SketchUcation, you would have received much more response from the users here and, at the very least, the changes that were made in v8 would have had more context.

-Brodie

johnsenior1973

@jason_maranto said:

Man, all the whining going on you'd think that Sketchup costs money... In my mind the only people who have a right to gripe is the Sketchup Pro users and Ruby Plugin developers.

For all you users who want to gripe about the normal FREE version of Sketchup not being whatever you think it should be: Why don't you create something so useful and extensible as Sketchup(very unlikely) and then give it away for free, and see how magnanimous you feel when the unwashed masses come to your door bearing pitchforks demanding your head.

It's FREE! how ungrateful can you be?

Sketchup Pro users please disregard this message as it is not aimed at you.

Best,
Jason.

The same stupid argument you make against the free users can be made against the Pro users. Why don't the pro users go out and create the Sketchup Pro beater and sell that for $500?

brodie

@johnsenior1973 said:

@jason_maranto said:

Man, all the whining going on you'd think that Sketchup costs money... In my mind the only people who have a right to gripe is the Sketchup Pro users and Ruby Plugin developers.

For all you users who want to gripe about the normal FREE version of Sketchup not being whatever you think it should be: Why don't you create something so useful and extensible as Sketchup(very unlikely) and then give it away for free, and see how magnanimous you feel when the unwashed masses come to your door bearing pitchforks demanding your head.

It's FREE! how ungrateful can you be?

Sketchup Pro users please disregard this message as it is not aimed at you.

Best,
Jason.

The same stupid argument you make against the free users can be made against the Pro users. Why don't the pro users go out and create the Sketchup Pro beater and sell that for $500?

I think we all have a right to voice opinions and frustration. Whether we pay for the product or not (I happen to be a Pro user) Google still gets something out of the deal. Free users are still improving Google's image and foothold in the marketplace. They also probably account for the vast majority of user built Google Earth buildings which is like having your own huge workforce of elves (the shoe business has all gone to China afterall) which work for "free".

I for one, would be very much in favor, though, of a much wider gap between the free and Pro versions. I understand the free version being created such that anyone can sit down and use it (and SU has done a wonderful job in that area). But I'd like to see the Pro version begin to be just that, a version for professionals (more professional tools, options, custimization, performance, etc.). I don't think anyone could fault SU for that.

For example, there has been a comment made by Google (John I believe) that some performance upgrade or other was unfeasible because of SketchUp's extremely broad user base which may not have access to good quality GPU's and such. I see validity in that for the free version, but I think it's reasonable to assume that for Pro's or any enthusiast willing to shell out $500, it's a different story.

-Brodie