Google is Listening!
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@mrwip said:
... If you still think it's a bunch of nonsense, then I'm sorry...
"violent"?
No, quite the opposite. 
Thanks too for making yourself more clear. I am English, and speak with an english 'tongue'. Sorry if you are not used to that.
Looking at you proposition now, having such a tool doesn't sound as complicated as it did before. It's a good idea. A more intelligent tool, that recognises when you are near a curve, and so then allows a different tool behaviour, if say is accompanied by pressing another key.
I think what made me jump was once using SpaceClaim, which claims to be an engineering version of SketchUp (SketchUp on steroids, as the marketing blurb suggests), and the tool automatically updates for you, which is, in my mind, wrong. I actually found that this behaviour slowed down my workflow! But it could work, if it had an option key that allowed this behaviour.
As for my 6 year old, Key Stage 1 children don't have a hold on the idea of being able to extrude a curved wall (some- yes, but a very small minority). It's only until they reach upper key stage 2 that they start to grasp this concept. This is why, this SU tool should stay as it is (but an option key to trigger this behaviour, yes. I'd support that).
I hope that makes sense now.
Tom
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PS, I don't think I could have said it better than Jeff has in his last post.
However, I think people flock to SU instead of Bonzai, because it is free, and the SU Pro version is cheaper than Bonzai!
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@unknownuser said:
[edit].. mrwip, you're misquoting me up there ^^^ (as in, i didn't say any of that) but i'll chalk it up as a typo
Whoops, sorry, I've messed up with the quoting tool on the last post....
tfdesign, I'm glad to see that my point of view is a bit more clear after that...
... Actually, I find that it's really hard to explain things about the way you're using a program and the way you want it to evolve on such a forum. Everyone has his own point of view, shaped by his own experience, no-one really know why someone is writing something, and it all get quite confusing...I mean, we're always reading things as we want to see them, and really often missing the point of the one who's trying to explain something. Adding to that the fact that many of us are not English native speakers, and the discussion easily turn into great mess... Still, it's really good to be able to express ideas around here !
Jeff, I really appreciate your try to define what makes sense (and essence...) in sketchup... it's quite effective, and shows why it works, by bringing together many concept not well used before in "old" 3D apps (snapping, navigation,...).
@unknownuser said:
the sub-core of sketchup struggles when dealing with too many polygons but the real core is a bit beyond that.. whatever those original @last guys were thinking, well, they pretty much nailed it whatever it is..
... You're touching there what I was struggling to express...There is "something" in the way sketchup was though at first, that still lie in it (that's why we keep using it with pleasure), but that "thing" have not been push or bring in action in the way the software is made, since some years.
... TO end up with the push pull thing, of course it was a schematic example, I'm conscious that extruding a line is not the same action as pushing a face...but still, I'm sure there's something to make there (and on many other subjects too).
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am i missing something with this super push pull tool?
if i want to 'extrude' a line - don't i just grab the end point and move it?
if i want it to be an extrusion i need to lock an inference to vertical, left, right, etc?i agree on a multiple face or curved surface push pull - but that needs to work in specific instances - JPP is a fairly complex ruby in its implementation.
as someone who teaches workshops for a specific application of sketchup - i certainly welcome more powerful tools, but if i need to tell a student too many of these things - 'right click, option, ctrl, left mouse, wiggle your toe, click, end command' - sketchup loses at its core what makes it so wonderful - simple tools to start, with (semi)consistent approach to modify those tools.
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@bmike said:
am i missing something with this super push pull tool?
if i want to 'extrude' a line - don't i just grab the end point and move it?
if i want it to be an extrusion i need to lock an inference to vertical, left, right, etc?Oh, you mean the rectangle tool? That's already in core sketchup.
Tig's extrude edges suite includes vector push pull which allows you to do things that the rectangle tool can't do. But, there's more setup involved which I don't think belongs in core push/pull
(again, don't get me' wrong. I personally woldnt mind more complex operations within the base tools but, they are no longer that simple so I don't think you're going to see it happen to sketchup)
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@unknownuser said:
@bmike said:
am i missing something with this super push pull tool?
if i want to 'extrude' a line - don't i just grab the end point and move it?
if i want it to be an extrusion i need to lock an inference to vertical, left, right, etc?Oh, you mean the rectangle tool? That's already in core sketchup.
Tig's extrude edges suite includes vector push pull which allows you to do things that the rectangle tool can't do. But, there's more setup involved which I don't think belongs in core push/pull
(again, don't get me' wrong. I personally woldnt mind more complex operations within the base tools but, they are no longer that simple so I don't think you're going to see it happen to sketchup)
vector push pull is very cool... but i think it would be a hard sell on packing all those options into a single tool.
fredo and tig and thomthom's tools (and others) are very welcome additions - but IME beyond the beginning user's knowledge base. i usually show a few of them in the workshops i teach - to whet the more experienced students appetite (and give them a link to this forum!)
30% of the folks i teach have a hard enough time installing a basic plugins package into their plugins folder! 10% of them can barely navigate to their programs directory and locate various folders aside from their 'Documents'. 2% have a hard time remembering where they saved something...
so, more complexity - sure - so long as it is layered on a base program that does not overwhelm the core functionality of the program.
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duplicate post!
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@bmike said:
30% of the folks i teach have a hard enough time installing a basic plugins package into their plugins folder! 10% of them can barely navigate to their programs directory and locate various folders aside from their 'Documents'. 2% have a hard time remembering where they saved something...
so, more complexity - sure - so long as it is layered on a base program that does not overwhelm the core functionality of the program.
This is why we really should have a repository in a structured manner where a Plugin Manager would let you browse and download plugins directly from SU. And of course update when updates are available.
The Plugin Manager should be available as an one-click-installer.That's make managing plugins a whole lot easier, and it'd open up people's awareness and that would strengthen the market so more professional plugin writers can make plugins.
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@bmike said:
vector push pull is very cool... but i think it would be a hard sell on packing all those options into a single ..
ok, so I'm confused then. Earlier you were saying that you want to pushpull a line. All you're going to get from that is a rectangle which is easily accomplished by the rectangle tool or drawing three more lines.
There are other cases where tig's tool does more than that but you're saying it's too complex to add to the base tool?
Basically, I think you're saying to allow pushpull to draw rectangles and while that might be neat, I don't think it's going to be implemented or even necessary. -
@unknownuser said:
@bmike said:
vector push pull is very cool... but i think it would be a hard sell on packing all those options into a single ..
ok, so I'm confused then. Earlier you were saying that you want to pushpull a line. All you're going to get from that is a rectangle which is easily accomplished by the rectangle tool or drawing three more lines.
There are other cases where tig's tool does more than that but you're saying it's too complex to add to the base tool?
Basically, I think you're saying to allow pushpull to draw rectangles and while that might be neat, I don't think it's going to be implemented or even necessary.no, i'm not trying to argue.
someone posted about push/pull / extruding a line.
i understood this as pulling on and end point, dragging the line out into space.
i see now that we are hung up on 'extruding' a line into a sheet of surface.yes, if you were to 'extrude' a line you'd get a rectangle, and should just use that tool.
i'm not asking for this as a feature.
i understand how to get there, or to get a curved sheet by using vector push pull.
i was simply commenting on what i thought i read earlier.personally i'd like the tools left alone, with incremental improvements and options for layering on features that make sense for an individual workflow.
and yes, thomthom - exactly. a plug in directory / management system, along with a strict UI and coding standards guide so clicks and icons and workflow all follow similar logic. naturally there will be outliers to any official 'system' - but having 'certified' plugins and a central repository (maybe divided into categories - much like smartphone app stores).
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I'm not trying to argue either. I just think certain requests aren't being thought through to the end user. It's not as simple as adding more features while maintaining intuitive tools.
Back to bonzai on that note. Upon a fresh install, you're greeted with three different select tools. You have to select a select tool prior to selecting. What's up with that?
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@unknownuser said:
I just think certain requests aren't being thought through to the end user. It's not as simple as adding more features while maintaining intuitive tools.
+10000
Which is why i was so confused by the whole point of wanting to stack on functions to a pretty basic concept that is push pull.
Could it be smarter? Sure, as long as it remains intuitive to use. -
@thomthom said:
.....a Plugin Manager would let you browse and download plugins directly from SU. And of course update when updates are available. The Plugin Manager should be available as an one-click-installer.
Basically something like Dreamweaver's Extension Manager?
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On the topic of Plugin Management, I would really like a standard method in the Ruby Code by which, at a minimum, the ruby file name is displayed with a mouseover****or in a description dialog when the menu item is right-clicked.
If I can figure out (when editing a ruby) where the menu name is defined I try and append it with the ruby name, version level, and the author. For example, Nudge [Nudge.rb v2.1 Smustard]. Although the menus get messy (wide) I find it particularly useful when recommending scripts or for scripts that I may not use often.
Other useful info would be a link to a download source and link to help and parameter info and even link to author's email.
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@hieru said:
Basically something like Dreamweaver's Extension Manager?
Maybe, I've never used it.
Like Firefox's plugin manager.
Like Debian/Ubuntu's package manager. -
After reading the last posts i'm feeling like the bad guy in here...
Everyone's talking about what a great plataform for plugins Sketchup is, but a great plataform that can't display shadows properly, that don't have a something like a plugin manager, that has a API that doesn't seem to give enough acess to, for example, textures, or doesn't even support x64 or multicore technology, even if just to others benefict from? even after guys like Edwin Catmull saying that the future is in using parallel processing (and he's just the guy that was in the original team from Pixar(now president) and ILM and invented the catmull-clarck subdivision, but what does he know right?) or seeing others using this to enhance subdivision surface modeling? Sorry, but i still can't see this as a great platform...it's good, but not that good.
But this is useless, arguing now won't change nothing because more than enough users are happy with this way of "evolving", and in 2 years when SK9 is realeased it still won't have multicore/x64/use the current technology like opencl/better texture or modeling tools, but it will probably let us pushpull more than one face or doing something like subdivision 1 level (plus a lot more for google earth) and most will be more than happy with that, just like in 6, 7 and now 8.
I try to discussed this in a open and frank way with the "head of the SK team", with reviews and opinions and such, but he dodge all the "bullets", and gave us "pearls" like UV spherical beeing unnecessary or too complex or trying to sell COLLADA format as a more Standart format than obj (and i'm all in favor for collada but it's undeniable that obj it's widelly used), and still very few care, like everyone's afraid to say bad about the release. Before the end of this topic end, most probably the conclusion is that this was a great realease...
And for me SK it's like an hammer, i just used to do what an hammer is supost to do, the problem is that it's a wood hammer, like my grand parents had, that's heavy, making me more tire, that start's to hurt in time with all the wood splits, and sometimes the heavy metal head falls off making me trying to figure out ways to put it back. Now in the XXI century i just wanted a new hammer for doing the exact same things, but in aluminium to be lighter, with rubber to grab more comfortably, and with a smaller a more precise head. Instead i got my old hammer back, but with ductape and painted in other colour...I think right now this is the best analogy tha can be done between sketchup and a hammer.
I'm on old Sketchup user, but i think i'm no longer a user of the new Sketchup google wants, even if my goal is the same as ever and remember that SK was doing pretty well before google earth.
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@thomthom said:
Like Firefox's plugin manager.
Like Debian/Ubuntu's package manager.I haven't used those before, but I think I know what you are getting at and think it's a great suggestion - especially if (as you say) you could get notifications when a new version of a plugin becomes available.
The only problem I can see is getting all developers to agree to work through a centralised plugin repository.
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@hieru said:
The only problem I can see is getting all developers to agree to work through a centralised plugin repository.
Don't think that would be the problem - problem is getting such a repository in the first place...
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......Yep that as well (probably more important come to think of it).
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@unknownuser said:
And for me SK it's like an hammer, i just used to do what an hammer is supost to do, the problem is that it's a wood hammer, like my grand parents had, that's heavy, making me more tire, that start's to hurt in time with all the wood splits, and sometimes the heavy metal head falls off making me trying to figure out ways to put it back. Now in the XXI century i just wanted a new hammer for doing the exact same things, but in aluminium to be lighter, with rubber to grab more comfortably, and with a smaller a more precise head. Instead i got my old hammer back, but with ductape and painted in other colour...I think right now this is the best analogy tha can be done between sketchup and a hammer.
you don't use hammers much, do you?
aluminum hammer?
smaller, more precise head? maybe - for finish work. but if i'm framing, i'd want a heavier, well balanced head.even within 'hammers' there are specific hammers for the job.
framing hammer, finish hammer, roofing hammer, etc. etc.but a hammer with an aluminum handle - no thanks. my elbows and hands hurt just thinking about it.
i'll take (and use) one of these:
and a host of others with wood handles.
no duct tape required.
hammer is a simple tool designed to do simple tasks.
but with the right simple tools, folks can build amazing things.
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