Impressive Sketchup House model needed
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I feel bad now. An associate sent me some chapters of a new textbook which have to do with SketchUp. I edited them and offered him some suggestions. I should have asked for a cut of those astronomical profits he is going to enjoy
Al Hart
IRender nXt from Render Plus -
Seems to me the target of this "debate" was, as is so often the case, way off target.
The common not-so-misconception that architects will do work for free is driven not by ignorance on the part of clients, but on anti-competitive unprofessional behaviour within the architecture profession. All too often the (not always, but often) less talented architect practices choose to undercut their competitors, just to get the job and the client (and of course to deny their competitors the same). Here in Sweden there has been a very public case of a huge development/construction firm (with a small in-house architect department) who won an important national competition largely on the basis that their fees were so low that they openly admitted they would actually make a loss on the project. No independant architecture firm could even consider reducing their fees to such levels. The only people who benefit from this sort of behaviour are the property developers, who just sit back and watch the money roll in while the architects work themselves into an early grave hoping that one day all these freebies will pay off and someone will offer them amazing fees for a fantastic project as a big karmic thank you for all their years of voluntary work... as if.
In other words, I'm not as offended by potential clients asking for freebies/discounts as I am by the architects-next-door who will ingratiatingly oblige them, demeaning the entire profession and blighting the urban and rural landscapes with their formulaic "Designed" knock-offs.
Kent,
If you're still reading, sorry this thread went so off-topic, but I don't think I've derailed it any further. Although it obviously wasn't your intent, but you inadvertantly planted the seed of an issue which, especially in these financially challenging times needs to be discussed openly IMO. Although it may not seem that way, I read this whole thread, am familiar with almost all of the contributers and can assure you that there's not one mean-spirited character amongst them, I guess everyone's nerves are just a little raw under the current circumstances. -
@unknownuser said:
I read this whole thread, am familiar with almost all of the contributers and can assure you that there's not one mean-spirited character amongst them...
Jackson, are you trying to ruin my reputation or what? Please don't stereotype me with other members of this forum.
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Yeah, true. Me neither. I am mean like this
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He he
Your post turned a smile on my face Jackson.
<Group hug mode:on > -
Jackson, that explains things very well. I really hope that Ken, if you are still reading this post you continue to join in the banter here.
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@jackson said:
I read this whole thread, am familiar with almost all of the contributers and can assure you that there's not one mean-spirited character amongst them
Feisty bunch, though.
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Good post, Jackson.
And this has nothing to do with the original thread, but in response to your post.
I would add that if you compare the cost of construction, engineering, financing, and the life of the building, a low architect's fee means nothing in the overall project. It is simply the first cost the client sees. So with this low fee, the architect might actually conceive something nice, but not manage to develop the design or document and administer the construction properly. So anything you save on fees will cost many times over in change orders and a substandard building. It's pound-foolish and penny-wise to coin a phrase.
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There is some dispute over whether these words are those of John Ruskin but they sum up an age old truth that will remain long after this debate is gone:
@unknownuser said:
“There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.”
.
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@toxicvoxel said:
There is some dispute over whether these words are those of John Ruskin but they sum up an age old truth that will remain long after this debate is gone:
@unknownuser said:
“There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.”
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Conversely... 'There is nothing in this world that someone cannot make better and cheaper...
We live in a consumer driven 'free market' society that is out of control. Jackson's post was well stated, however, Architects are not the only ones who suffer from this dilema. Anyone who provides a service or manufactures a product is prone to price cutting. Consider the small storekeeper who is driven out of business by Wallmart, or the manufacturer who cannot compete with foreign child labor and low costs. Who is to blame when people cannot make ends meet and are forced to buy cheap goods and who among us is not guilty. It is easy to blame someone like Kent, however, my question is, if he agreed to pay someone on this forum who has criticized him for the model, would that person then take the money and use it to purchase 'fair trade' or just go looking for a bargain?
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@unknownuser said:
Conversely... 'There is nothing in this world that someone cannot make better and cheaper...
I do not believe that this statement holds true for the services provided by architects or any other design discipline for that matter.
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I believe it should read "better OR cheaper"
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Architecture is not immune from competitive pricing although in that field it is frowned upon and advertising of said prices is generally illegal in many states. If a client is seeking the services of either an architect or home designer and has limited funds (we are after all in a serious recession with some deflation) they will be drawn towards a fee that they can afford.
Higher pricing does not equate to higher quality in the service industry. This is not only true with architecture but in medicine, auto repair, law, etc. Freebies and undercutting your competitors fees is a fact of life and I have seen this done for the past 24 years – although I have never done anything for free nor made a conscious decision to charge less than my competitors.
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My experience with cut prices is just an oposite. I beleive there is no such a thing as "free lunch" as we say. In construction industry I have seen so many times people undercut the the price of contract only to get the contract. Next step is than letter after letter trying to change this and that , claiming faults etc., demanding more money and applying pressure hoping to brake you down.
You cannot get Aston Martin and hoping to pay price of Skoda. It is just not possible. -
@solo said:
I believe it should read "better OR cheaper"
I think you might have missed the point "Better AND Cheaper"
In my business, (Software), once someone creates a piece of software, we can make something better and cheaper because the first developer already did the work to design the concept, flow and user interface.
It is then easy to make improvements and create a similar capability without having to learn from all the mistakes the first developer had to learn from and discard.
Al Hart
IRender nXt from Render Plus -
Ah! Point taken.
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Great thread, but I'm surprised with all the talk about any work being offered for free as being wrong, that no-one has mentioned how much benefit people are getting from this free forum, from free ruby scripts, and even free SketchUp.
I think it was Ross some pages back who mentioned it could be of benefit to vanity or someone with a packaged houseplans business. For someone selling houseplans online, all it would take is one sale based on this to make it worthwhile to them.
Isn't it better to receive the offer, than not at all?
I agree that doing bespoke work from a professional architect almost certainly sends the wrong message. That seems like a different issue though. I'd love to see what academic research says about client perceptions of fees and pricing structure by architects. Might make for another interesting thread...
William
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The Royal Institute of British Architects has undertaken a lot of excellent research and reading on the subject; search results for "fees" came up with 819 hits. They can be found here. Hit #1 is (as you would expect) of particular relevance regarding the relationship between fees and design quality. It can be found here.
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Cheers for the links jackson, some interesting reading there.
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Architects, lawyers, doctors, investment bankers, plumbers, gardeners, cobblers..., there are good ones, mediocre ones, and downright bad ones. Some charge high fees, some charge low fees. Caveat emptor.
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