Do humans have a free will?
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Slightly OT again. Regarding the question of infant mortality, this makes interesting reading.
http://politicsplusstuff.blogspot.com/2005/12/roman-catholic-church-reconsiders.htmlThe RC church only recently "informally" changed its mind about the destination of unbaptised infants. Previously, they did indeed go to Purgatory. So now it's all right...it's official...they only go to Limbo. The problem is that organised religion is doing this all the time....with or without God's permission. Taking a fixed position on this issue, like anything else, makes as much sense as taking an eternal, unmoving position on fashion.
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Amazing how the bible can be twisted to support your convenience. I bet Cornel can even find a passage that have nothing to do with squat that will even support the Iraq war.
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@solo said:
Amazing how the bible can be twisted to support your convenience. I bet Cornel can even find a passage that have nothing to do with squat that will even support the Iraq war.
I am pretty sure that's happened already
. It's pretty scary. -
@unknownuser said:
CraigD,
re. your "Humans DO have free will!!"There are a few conditions…
See an example!:
”…and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free[.” (John 8:32)Cornel
You are obviously not married...
HAHAHA -
Solo & Chongo...,
If you already read the Book of Daniel, you don’t have to wait for me …!
(re. Iraq)Cornel
P.S.:
Versions of Proverbs 19:13, for CraigD:
“…a quarrelsome wife is as annoying as constant dripping.”
“…a wife’s quarreling is a continual dripping of rain.”
“…the contentions of a wife are a constant dripping.” -
Great thread! I'm a bit late to it so forgive me. chongo70 I'm really digging your comments, great approach.
I'd like to add that from my atheist perspective the idea of free will is a purely religious construct, meaning that it can only be discussed within the framework of some religion. Without that it's quite absurd because it requires me to imagine someone in my head other than me. My actions are determined by the way my thoughts developed as I aged and how they were formed by my parents, peers, and environment. There is no entity (God) upon which to pin that developmental influence. That being said, is it fair to say that atheists have free will and religious people do not on the basis that their actions are either preprogrammed by or at least influenced by the word (will) of their God?
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@unknownuser said:
Solo & Chongo...,
If you already read the Book of Daniel, you don’t have to wait for me …!
(re. Iraq)Cornel
P.S.:
Versions of Proverbs 19:13, for CraigD:
“…a quarrelsome wife is as annoying as constant dripping.”
“…a wife’s quarreling is a continual dripping of rain.”
“…the contentions of a wife are a constant dripping.”Cornel
Can you quote the entire Old & New Testament back to back? Am I supposed to be impressed by that?
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Eric you hit the nail on the head, Like you, I too am athiest and liberated from a scripted existence that most 'practicing' religious folk are restricted to.
I make choices based on my values and morals and I accept the consequences of those decisions, this gives me the conclusion that I have free will. Unlike Cornel for instance, who really does not have free will as he is trapped to the regiment of his convictions, all decisions need to be qualified by his book of quotes and parables, and second guessing based on an eternity of harps and hymns or sulfur and brimstone. -
Eric & Pete,
(Am I ‘crazy’…?!)If you are atheists, you cannot explain entire “spirit” and part of the “soul”
but you are ‘proud’ about your freedom...?!!Paradoxically…:
CornelP.S.:
"The natural person () does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned*." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
(* - like an atheist...) -
@unknownuser said:
P.S.:
"The natural person () does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned*." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
(* - like an atheist...)Thanks Cornel, I coundn't have said it better myself. Funny thing about this quote is that religious people read it and feel sorry for atheists and atheists don't read it. Does 'Natural' maan 'atheist'? Does this mean spiritual/religious people are un-natural?
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Excellently put Tomasz, You have said a lot in a few shorts sentences.
Mike
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Hi, thanks Plot for bringing in a new interesting thread. I intend to go back to the old one as well.
I am sure we have free will. Without it we couldn't take responsibility for our actions.
If we won't exercise this gift, we will be like an anonymous, colourless mass.As already pointed out, very often we are being pushed to do something, very often our emotions win and we do what in fairness we don't want to.
There are people who doesn't care and do what they were told to without a trace of reflection.
On the other hand, there are people with very well formed minds (souls), being able to exercise their gift.Tomasz
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Cornel wrote:
@unknownuser said:
If you are atheists, you cannot explain entire “spirit” and part of the “soul”
but you are ‘proud’ about your freedom...?!!Um, Cornel focus for a second, you the one that insists on mentioning souls and spirits, let me try again .... I am athiest and I have spirits in a pub and soles on my shoes. I do not believe in ghosts holy or not, heaven nor hell. I do believe jesus existed, but not as the son of God born to a virgin but rather a very socially liberal dude with a magnetic personallity and a posse.
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Eric,
per your request,Voila versions of expression “the natural man”,
from different English translations of The Bible:“nonspiritual man”,
“people who aren’t spiritual”,
“the sensual man”,
“a beastly man”.Using 'Bible online' you can see those contexts...!
(1 Corinthians 2:14)Cornel
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Eric, I disagree that the concept of freewill requires a religious underpinning.
There is a chemical, biological aspect to the question as well. In some ways this is an issue related to another thread about people being rewarded for their abilities.
Over the years I have come to believe, much to my dismay, that we are the result of how we are wired and our cheimistry. You are bright because you are born bright. You work hard because you have been hard wired to be that way. You are gay because you are wired that way. You are an axe murderer because you are wired that way. You are a hot momma because your hormones are raging and many years later, you are not because the hormone supply is cut off. You try to repair your wiring with Ritalin, or Lithium, or what have you, because free will won't fix the problem. Chemicals do.
You may have some free will in some smaller areas, like do I eat a hot dog or a cheese sandwhich, but I would bet even your preference at that moment is determined by a host of chemical reactions taking place in your body at that moment.
I believe that in the book Freakonomics, the fellow used stats to show that individuals adopted at birth were more likely to have the intellect, intersests, income level, drug and sexual behaviour of their biological parents than that of their adoptive parents. So much for nurture. ( so if you gave birth to a messed up kid, you don't have to brow beat yourself anymore)I wish I believed otherwise. This is not desireable for me, but my observations have led to this inescapable conclusion.
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Susan, great points. I disagree with you that we disagree, I think we agree and here's why. I think the question the way it has been discussed here is whether there is a force other than physical or historical (personal history, i.e. upbringing) that influences our everyday comings and goings. I fully agree with you that chemistry plays a big role in predisposing us for most behaviors, being wired a certain way. The idea, however, that our path thru life is somehow predetermined at birth by a higher power or somehow influenced by 'him', is what I just don't see. Perhaps I was remiss in mentioning chemistry in my original post but I lump that in with the biological factors of learning.
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@unknownuser said:
Eric & Pete,
(Am I ‘crazy’…?!)If you are atheists, you cannot explain entire “spirit” and part of the “soul”
but you are ‘proud’ about your freedom...?!!Paradoxically…:
CornelSorry, I don't see a paradox. What freedom am I proud of? What is the opposite of free will?
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You are right, Susan,
“we are the result of how we are wired”, spiritual or nonspiritual:“Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:19-23)
Eric,
You can’t see that paradox because of an interposed 'ilusive free will'!Cornel
P.S. (re.‘chemistry’): Alchemists were 'avaporated' long time ago… Sorry for this inconvenient! -
@unknownuser said:
(P.S.: Mike, practically you were in attendance for a “word from Cornel”, for your amusement, weren’t you? Perhaps your soul and spirit will became more important…!?!)
Far from it Cornel, but would you not agree that a person's humour
can often prove the existance of their Soul or Spirit? I often
judge a person this way! A humourless person often could be
described as lacking in soul / spirit. Hey! it appears that JC
had a good sense of humour from what I understand. It was not all
work and no play, would you agree?%(#0000BF)[Jesus was a joyful person, continually urging his followers to be
joyful. He explains to his disciples, "I have told you this so that
my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete" (John 15:11)]
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=1276&contentID=63084&shortcutID=22379
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And a pretty good magician I hear too.
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