Do humans have a free will?
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interesting thoughts, solo. I ran into this wall of rigidity in church classes too; not exactly with the "god knows everything" thing, but pretty much the same way. that was, of course, what drove me away from christian religion.
but to use this idea of god being able to look behind any decision you make. that god knows what you are going to do is a bit extreme of course. but an immensely intelligent being may be able to forecast one's actions more accurately than we like.
that means, that most of our decisions are the logical solution of an equation. this deciding process is immensely complex and affected by everything we experienced throughout our life. therefore god (or the incredibly intelligent being) is able to quite precisely calculate our decisions. the only thing that he can't calculate is the small random function, deep down somewhere in our subconscious (if such a thing exists)
so for the time being (it may change throughout this discussion) my conclusion is:
we humans don't have an unlimited free will - but free enough!
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My religious experience was different; God is all knowing (He knows what is our hearts), but doesn't know what actions we are going to take. it is up to us to determine whether we are going to sin or not, whether we choose right or wrong. How can you have the concepts of responsibility, right and wrong (sin), guilt or innocence, without freedom of choice?
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I have purposely avoided these discussions because they tend to get rather rancorous or at the least it is very difficult to explain (for me anyway) a belief system, the beliefs that I have and I cherish in this kind of a forum. But when this question was posed, I couldn't resist chiming in a bit. I love to clown around with you --my friends--on this web site forum (now I am sounding like McCain
) but seriously. . .I would love for you all to know about my faith and my beliefs. Please look at this link here and hopefully you will get a taste of what is important to me. I know it's true and I love it. -
Of course I do, just as long as I agree with 'er indoors!
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Only indoors, Peter?
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@remus said:
Id like to think we have, but we dont know, and as far as i can tell there is no way of knowing.
I guess I'm with Remus. Though I must add that, until now, I haven't given this question much thought.
It's an appealling concept, all in all, having no free will.
"You have been visiting p*rn sites again!"
"I had no choice, honey."
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I wonder! Are we not all 'pre-wired / programmed' in our genes,
to work a certain way OVERALL!Do animals have free will? I think its generally considered
that they don't as they fall into the above category. Are we
not animals also? -
We are affected by our environment and upbringing though, so our free will can not be entirely 'pre programmed.'
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We aren’t predestinated.., we are only created, 'educated' and 'disciplined’ by God!
“God knows everything”, He knows what is the best for us…, not only what is good…:
“Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” (Romans 12:2)
Because of that, apostle Paul decided to ‘walk’ w/ God, like Enoch:
“For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” (Philippians 1:21)
…or
“… It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20)Consequence: God knows our needs and,
“… it is God who works in you, both to will and to work …” (Philippians 2:13)
”And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.” (1 Corinthians 1:30”)
Those are attributes of true freedom…!Cornel
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Humans DO have free will!! ...I was told to say that
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Cornel, you make absolutely no sense!
Answer the question with your words, all this cryptic pasting in various fonts and colors is distracting, almost as if you are shouting or preaching (the same thing in some churches)
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Could Cornel be looked on as a good example of what I suggest
might be the case? -
”…and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
A good defense lawyer will do the same.
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CraigD,
re. your "Humans DO have free will!!"There are a few conditions…
See an example!:
”…and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free[.” (John 8:32)Cornel
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Dear Mike,
I'm partly with you on this one, but I believe that our early experiences have a lot to do with how we are. Yes, genetics plays its part, the most obvious being that of appearance: if you are physically attractive then your chances of a successful life are enhanced because society as a whole will favour you. What happens to you in the womb and at birth can also affect your capacity to learn and retain information. Someone who is quick on the uptake is more likely to make it in the world. However, these advantages can be negated by overbearing parents who rob their children of self confidence, and by bad teachers who fail to inspire their pupils. I believe in free will, and I do not think we are hard-wired at birth. The cross-linking happens gradually as we grow up, and that is, to large measure, down to luck. Do you feel lucky?
Regards,
BobPS Please note that I left out the word 'punk' in the last sentence, but it was very tempting.
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Quoting from the Bible is all very fine but is the Bible the
'word' of God (The Christian one)or is it a copy of a copy of
a copy etc. There is quite strong evidence that this is the
case with recent finds in the Middle East! The Roman Catholic
Church would appear to have omitted quite a lot of the original
text as it did not suit their ends. This however is not what
we are talking about here. -
@daniel said:
For the most part, yes we have freedom of choice, limited by our means and environment. However, when looking at history, I cannot help thinking there have been some individuals whose destiny was predetermined. Also, if one believes in the Bible, then there are times when someone's actions are affected by Divine intervention.
That's what I call covering all the bases.
~Voder
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I understand your take on it Bob and what you say is often the
case. But at the same time people just go down 'certain' roads
regardless of their upbringing.I remember reading about a case study that involved identical
twins, one going to a privileged home and the other going to
a not so privileged home. I can't remember the exact details
but do remember that both twins ended up with similar outlooks.I'd say if a character trait is in your genes its going to come
out and manifest itself eventually. We have no more power over
it than we have to 'wish' ourselves to be a certain height, again
predetermined by our genes!In a certain way this kind of thinking could tie in nicely with
God's / The Creator's Plan? I suppose at the end of the day it
could be argued that all we can do is modify our traits / behavior
to be acceptable in our surroundings? After all self preservation
is top of the list.Maybe all we have to hand is a 'slide switch' for behavior levels
/ scale BUT the particular gene is embedded! -
Cornel,
Could you clarify something for me that's been bugging me for a long
time. Okay, I have no argument and accept that you BELIEVE,1. My Bible is The Word of God, I'm sure about that, because: “For
the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword,
piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow,
and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)My question is simple! The Bible quote you offer is from (Hebrews 4:12),now
my Biblical knowledge is not great but was Hebrews not written before
the birth of Jesus Christ? From what I can gather the early Bible (first
Testament) is the basis for Judaism and they do not accept the Jesus Christ
was / is God! How can you quote Hebrews to support this? I would genuinely
like to hear your thinking on this in plain English.Regarding your statement that we are not animals and bare in mind that
there is little difference between us and chimps, gene wise, what exactly
are we in your opinion? -
Humans are genetically, environmentally and socially conditioned animals. There are experienments in the 80s that showed that our unconscious 'acted' before we are consciously aware (by 0.5s through brain imaging) of our effort in decision making. Even David Hume said that our rationality are slave to our passions. The question shouldn't be do we have 'free will' as though so called 'free will' actually exists outside of our complex and dynamic interaction with our current and historical conditions, but rather to what extent can we exercise self-determination given our complex and dynamic interactions with our preconditions.
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