[REQ] Select Vs Edit Change in a fundamental way.

JQL · 26 Oct 2015, 17:53

In fact it drives me mental that this CTRL+move (on rotate) isn't a function in SU! I normally copy > paste in place > rotate.

But you can rotate and copy using CTRL in SU too. Select an object, rotate, hit ctrl once, and copy it.

@richard said:

The inference dongle is too one of my most loved functionalities of LO, this one feature I'd suggest makes LO truly usable.

@richard said:

Admittedly, for me SU is the tool I use second to (or after) layout, not the regular way around, meaning LayOut is my design tool then SketchUp. The current way the functionalities in LO work allows for me, a much faster design flow. And seriously one so fast that it allows almost thoughtless effort such that your mind is completely free to work the design, NOT the tool.

So you bought Layout and then found out that it had a funny enhancement called sketchup?

pbacot · 26 Oct 2015, 17:59

Richard, Do you use LayOut to design your houses and things. Then you put it in SU?

I don't know how to use the dongle I guess. I try to stay away from it.

Richard · 27 Oct 2015, 00:36

@jql said:

But you can rotate and copy using CTRL in SU too. Select an object, rotate, hit ctrl once, and copy it.

True! But once I'm in the move tool I might as well stay in the move tool. A simple CTRL modifier here would not be wasted as one also doesn't have to fight the axis finding issue of the rotate tool.

I guess to be mindful here too, that I probably model differently to most users. I always model in primaries as it's SO MUCH FASTER!

@richard said:

Admittedly, for me SU is the tool I use second to (or after) layout, not the regular way around, meaning LayOut is my design tool then SketchUp. The current way the functionalities in LO work allows for me, a much faster design flow. And seriously one so fast that it allows almost thoughtless effort such that your mind is completely free to work the design, NOT the tool.

@jql said:

So you bought Layout and then found out that it had a funny enhancement called sketchup?

I would today! But no, I previously used MS WORD as my planning tool before dragging to SU.

Richard · 27 Oct 2015, 01:15

@pbacot said:

Richard, Do you use LayOut to design your houses and things. Then you put it in SU?

Spot on mate! If I captured a real time video of floor planning in LayOut, I swear you would think it was speed up.

Hope not to sound like a wanker, but I'm a strong believer that our creativity can be stifled by the intermittent interruptions introduced when we have to think about actions in any software.

By using LayOut in this way (just primaries) it works almost as an extension of your thoughts much like a pencil. In the same way I use primaries almost exclusively in SU for reasons of speed.

It also gives me market quality presentation plans to demonstrate to clients, council and put direct to market in web or brochure print. All without any linking to models, time wise even if I had to go back and alter the actual model, I'm still WAY in front on savings.

@pbacot said:

I don't know how to use the dongle I guess. I try to stay away from it.

SO SO easy to use mate! If you have SNAP TO POINT enabled in LO, you can pick the dongle and move it to a point on the object to set as the inference or point of rotation. Soon as you click off the object, the point returns to centre.

pbacot · 27 Oct 2015, 03:04

Word? Richard, you really ARE different. What do you mean by "primaries"?

Richard · 27 Oct 2015, 04:42

@pbacot said:

Word? Richard, you really ARE different.

Yeah, it just worked easy for me mate! Here is the carpark layout of a 13 unit development ALL done with Word - every line! AND many years ago obviously!

@pbacot said:

What do you mean by "primaries"?

In Layout working exclusively in rectangles - drag copy scale > drag copy scale
In Sketchup working almost exclusively with a cube - drag copy scale paint > drag copy scale paint

The speed gains in SU are obvious, lots done before changing camera, less double click edits, hardly any line tool | pushpull tool | rotate tool, NO OFF AXIS LINES!

pbacot · 27 Oct 2015, 06:36

Very nice. I like the points you make. Yeah it takes a while to sink in-- OH this is THREE-d. You mean i don't have to draw a one-d line every time?

Phillip H · 27 Oct 2015, 10:30

Hi All,

I hope I'm not intruding in what is obviously a higher level discussion. Not having a dog in this fight, I hope that my perspective will be of some small value among my betters. I don't use Layout. Why, may or may not surprise you.

I had played around in SketchUp over the years. It wasn't until this last year that I started to concentrate on learning SketchUp in earnest. I started designing in earnest.

As an intermediately proficient 'noob' (that may be a little generous), one of the most important things I learned about using SketchUp was the methods I consciously memorized; the things committed to preference and to reflex. Whether it is in the creative sequence I memorize for modeling certain types of objects, or the keyboard shortcuts I have assigned in support of my current methods, one thing is abundantly clear: whatever interferes with the creative process is bad.

Keyboard shortcuts are a prime example of the point I would make. The idea is to reduce the tool selection process to muscle memory. This is the desirable result. This is also why I have made a conscious choice not to use Layout.

Much like SketchUp, I have dabbled in it. But I was not forced to commit to its use due to job requirements or any pressing need. So I chose not to even try. Why? The interface. It is just different enough to cause confusion and interfere with my efforts in 'internalizing' SketchUp.

Personally, I believe any effort to reduce the differences in the interface cannot but help make it more intuitive and therefore, more attractive.

JQL · 28 Oct 2015, 09:53

Richard,

I respect what you do. But people using sketchup need LO. It's its primary use! People who use sketchup would feel way better if they seamlessly would use LO without a single uneeded change in interface.

@phillip h said:

Personally, I believe any effort to reduce the differences in the interface cannot but help make it more intuitive and therefore, more attractive.

And there are hundreds of uneeded changes in interface!

Richard · 29 Oct 2015, 01:55

@jql said:

Richard,

I respect what you do. But people using sketchup need LO. It's its primary use! People who use sketchup would feel way better if they seamlessly would use LO without a single uneeded change in interface.

Totally agree with you mate! Weirdly though I see LayOut having application way beyond SU (if some critical tools were added).

The question beckons I guess, which application needs the modifications for functionality to become homogeneous? Its likely a little bit of this and a little bit of that!

JQL · 29 Oct 2015, 11:16

@richard said:

Its likely a little bit of this and a little bit of that!

I also agree... a little bit should be more than enough. However all things that are repeated should behave the same.

Consistency in UI is key for software. Learning is easy and, if you use some specific parts of your software, like LO or a specific plugin, it helps if their UI are also based on the main UI.

The result is less learning and thinking on how to do it and more doing it!

Phillip H · 29 Oct 2015, 12:38

Perhaps it would serve this topic well were it recast as a poll and made a sticky. This seems like an important discussion that has the potential to drive the future of product development. It is the kind of discussion that should involve the leaders of this community if not whole membership. I'm sure we could benefit from observations and experience of those more accomplished than those of beginners like me. Just sayin', I'd like to hear more.

Richard · 29 Oct 2015, 23:19

@phillip h said:

Perhaps it would serve this topic well were it recast as a poll and made a sticky. This seems like an important discussion that has the potential to drive the future of product development. It is the kind of discussion that should involve the leaders of this community if not whole membership. I'm sure we could benefit from observations and experience of those more accomplished than those of beginners like me. Just sayin', I'd like to hear more.

There is the Layout wish list, that I'm pretty sure the developers are keeping an eye on!

Phillip H · 30 Oct 2015, 02:42

@richard said:

There is the Layout wish list, that I'm pretty sure the developers are keeping an eye on!
Thanks Richard. You are too kind sir. I just think that discussion on this topic would be an excellent opportunity for me to learn new perspectives from (as we sometimes say in Texas) the old hands. I do hope they are listening.

Phillip

Richard · 30 Oct 2015, 05:30

@pbacot said:

Richard, Do you use LayOut to design your houses and things. Then you put it in SU?

Just for your interest mate, here is a rough sketch design for 8 x 2 storey units, done this morning with layout in around 4-5 hrs from scratch.

JQL · 30 Oct 2015, 09:59

@richard said:

@pbacot said:

Richard, Do you use LayOut to design your houses and things. Then you put it in SU?

Just for your interest mate, here is a rough sketch design for 8 x 2 storey units, done this morning with layout in around 4-5 hrs from scratch.

[attachment=0:29lrnd0w]1600_2.jpg[/attachment:29lrnd0w]

Well, that could be drawn inside sketchup even faster... And then you could convert that into a 3D model and render in Thea in an IBL background in the same day.

Using LO like you would use Acad or Illustrator surely is a nice topic!

Though Sketchup is a 3D modeler I use it for all my 2D drawings and studies too and then send them to layout with a click of a button. This might be the reverse of what you do and that is also an interesting discussion in itsel.

However, the topic here is about SU+LO and how they are not following same principles in UI when they should. It has to do with how fluid is our connection between both apps, not how fast you model or draw on each of them when you're used to them.

This topic is obviously for people wich work with both and consider them important at the fullest scope possible.

Richard · 31 Oct 2015, 03:22

@jql said:

Well, that could be drawn inside sketchup even faster... And then you could convert that into a 3D model and render in Thea in an IBL background in the same day.

Mate, you may have missed the key words "design sketch". Creating a design from scratch to support 8 units against planning controls and good internal space planning and testing half dozen layout and unit variations on route to this workable, but maybe not final solution.

And yes for sure mate, if given a preconceived design, it would be possible to work it up in 3d, test the exterior and run a draft render out of SU. But the shear amount of testing on reconfigurations - I would honestly suggest I could not hope to resolve a solution in such a short time. SU just doesn't like to play so fluently.

Just the adsence of a nudge tool would add so much time, probably an hour alone in this exercise was spent nudging spaces around to get that 100mm here and there (given the accumulative result) to get it to work.

@jql said:

Using LO like you would use Acad or Illustrator surely is a nice topic!

Strangely I see the possible option to one day be able to export a 3d model (of sorts) from LayOut, maybe through the assignment of "extrude by layer", or by assignment of xref attributes that substitute LO objects for SU components on export. Sure the result would be crude but would give good starting point from which to edit the result.

@jql said:

Though Sketchup is a 3D modeler I use it for all my 2D drawings and studies too and then send them to layout with a click of a button. This might be the reverse of what you do and that is also an interesting discussion in itsel.

I have several times trialed the design of concepts in SU as a 2D tool, for me it's just a few things that break its fluidity. That said, several functions (layers maintained in groups, offset tool etc). I do admit that my way of working in reverse does mean double work (design in LO, model in SU) but the total time I save in design is significant (well for me at least).

@jql said:

However, the topic here is about SU+LO and how they are not following same principles in UI when they should. It has to do with how fluid is our connection between both apps, not how fast you model or draw on each of them when you're used to them.

This topic is obviously for people wich work with both and consider them important at the fullest scope possible.

Totally agree with you mate on matching the functionalities, so long as one isn't broken in the effort. And that a study of where the common point lies might not just be a review of LO's functionality.

BTW I hope I haven't hijacked the thread, was just making the case that not all work in the same way! And that a study of a different way might spark the developers to look deeper into the possibilities offered in these BRILLIANT tools.

JQL · 31 Oct 2015, 19:37

@richard said:

@jql said:

Well, that could be drawn inside sketchup even faster... And then you could convert that into a 3D model and render in Thea in an IBL background in the same day.

Mate, you may have missed the key words "design sketch".

I didn't miss them!

My design sketches are done on site, on meetings and on paper. I don't know how much time I take to develop them.

Then, what you do call design sketches I do not have. I replace that by designing a model as my first plans are also related with space studies, not floor plans alone alone. My space studies quickly evolve to models and my models are quickly rendered.

I might still be talking about design sketches but inside Sketchup. They're not a morning's work, but a day's work.

From there a quick presentation emerges. A 3D one with LO plans and some renders. The main idea is there but also the main model.

As the idea evolves, the model evolves. There's also optimization there's also quick work, but there is not a 2D frame of mind. There's always a 3D take on things and a quick 2D LO output.

On some stages, not even the 2D output is needed as we are talking on space changes, nor floor plan, LO changes. At least not in a fundamental way.