[REQ] Select Vs Edit Change in a fundamental way.
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@pbacot said:
I probably agree with most of what you have here. Except I can single click select an item. I can add using the shift key and subtract select also using the shift key. No problem there.
The problem is not with individual objects but with groups of objects and complex selections. This adds up with the way a object can be selected even in it's transparent areas.
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I've been hassled by drag to move, double click edits that miss and selection methods since the beginning of days! I want layout but these simple things brake my heart!
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I notice this. Let's say you want to right -left select (drag) and just get certain enclosed items. if you touch an object it will move that instead, whereas in SU it ignores the object you happen to start on. Same with a left-right grab. I am used to PowerCADD that also has this problem and can be a hassle when you have a lot on the page or a background element, that's all because of the lack (originally) of a move tool.
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It's funny the way we all work differently! I'd almost scream and spit blood from my eyes if several of these LO functionalities were changed. Example, CTRL on scale (sometimes it drives me crazy) but CTRL (for copy) on rotate is probably my number 2 tool. In fact it drives me mental that this CTRL+move (on rotate) isn't a function in SU! I normally copy > paste in place > rotate.
The inference dongle is too one of my most loved functionalities of LO, this one feature I'd suggest makes LO truly usable.
Admittedly, for me SU is the tool I use second to (or after) layout, not the regular way around, meaning LayOut is my design tool then SketchUp. The current way the functionalities in LO work allows for me, a much faster design flow. And seriously one so fast that it allows almost thoughtless effort such that your mind is completely free to work the design, NOT the tool.
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@richard said:
In fact it drives me mental that this CTRL+move (on rotate) isn't a function in SU! I normally copy > paste in place > rotate.
But you can rotate and copy using CTRL in SU too. Select an object, rotate, hit ctrl once, and copy it.
@richard said:
The inference dongle is too one of my most loved functionalities of LO, this one feature I'd suggest makes LO truly usable.
@richard said:
Admittedly, for me SU is the tool I use second to (or after) layout, not the regular way around, meaning LayOut is my design tool then SketchUp. The current way the functionalities in LO work allows for me, a much faster design flow. And seriously one so fast that it allows almost thoughtless effort such that your mind is completely free to work the design, NOT the tool.
So you bought Layout and then found out that it had a funny enhancement called sketchup?
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Richard, Do you use LayOut to design your houses and things. Then you put it in SU?
I don't know how to use the dongle I guess. I try to stay away from it.
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@jql said:
But you can rotate and copy using CTRL in SU too. Select an object, rotate, hit ctrl once, and copy it.
True! But once I'm in the move tool I might as well stay in the move tool. A simple CTRL modifier here would not be wasted as one also doesn't have to fight the axis finding issue of the rotate tool.
I guess to be mindful here too, that I probably model differently to most users. I always model in primaries as it's SO MUCH FASTER!
@richard said:
Admittedly, for me SU is the tool I use second to (or after) layout, not the regular way around, meaning LayOut is my design tool then SketchUp. The current way the functionalities in LO work allows for me, a much faster design flow. And seriously one so fast that it allows almost thoughtless effort such that your mind is completely free to work the design, NOT the tool.
@jql said:
So you bought Layout and then found out that it had a funny enhancement called sketchup?
I would today! But no, I previously used MS WORD as my planning tool before dragging to SU.
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@pbacot said:
Richard, Do you use LayOut to design your houses and things. Then you put it in SU?
Spot on mate! If I captured a real time video of floor planning in LayOut, I swear you would think it was speed up.
Hope not to sound like a wanker, but I'm a strong believer that our creativity can be stifled by the intermittent interruptions introduced when we have to think about actions in any software.
By using LayOut in this way (just primaries) it works almost as an extension of your thoughts much like a pencil. In the same way I use primaries almost exclusively in SU for reasons of speed.
It also gives me market quality presentation plans to demonstrate to clients, council and put direct to market in web or brochure print. All without any linking to models, time wise even if I had to go back and alter the actual model, I'm still WAY in front on savings.
@pbacot said:
I don't know how to use the dongle I guess. I try to stay away from it.
SO SO easy to use mate! If you have SNAP TO POINT enabled in LO, you can pick the dongle and move it to a point on the object to set as the inference or point of rotation. Soon as you click off the object, the point returns to centre.
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Word? Richard, you really ARE different. What do you mean by "primaries"?
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@pbacot said:
Word? Richard, you really ARE different.
Yeah, it just worked easy for me mate! Here is the carpark layout of a 13 unit development ALL done with Word - every line! AND many years ago obviously!
@pbacot said:
What do you mean by "primaries"?
In Layout working exclusively in rectangles - drag copy scale > drag copy scale
In Sketchup working almost exclusively with a cube - drag copy scale paint > drag copy scale paintThe speed gains in SU are obvious, lots done before changing camera, less double click edits, hardly any line tool | pushpull tool | rotate tool, NO OFF AXIS LINES!
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Very nice. I like the points you make. Yeah it takes a while to sink in-- OH this is THREE-d. You mean i don't have to draw a one-d line every time?
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Hi All,
I hope I'm not intruding in what is obviously a higher level discussion. Not having a dog in this fight, I hope that my perspective will be of some small value among my betters. I don't use Layout. Why, may or may not surprise you.
I had played around in SketchUp over the years. It wasn't until this last year that I started to concentrate on learning SketchUp in earnest. I started designing in earnest.
As an intermediately proficient 'noob' (that may be a little generous), one of the most important things I learned about using SketchUp was the methods I consciously memorized; the things committed to preference and to reflex. Whether it is in the creative sequence I memorize for modeling certain types of objects, or the keyboard shortcuts I have assigned in support of my current methods, one thing is abundantly clear: whatever interferes with the creative process is bad.
Keyboard shortcuts are a prime example of the point I would make. The idea is to reduce the tool selection process to muscle memory. This is the desirable result. This is also why I have made a conscious choice not to use Layout.
Much like SketchUp, I have dabbled in it. But I was not forced to commit to its use due to job requirements or any pressing need. So I chose not to even try. Why? The interface. It is just different enough to cause confusion and interfere with my efforts in 'internalizing' SketchUp.
Personally, I believe any effort to reduce the differences in the interface cannot but help make it more intuitive and therefore, more attractive.
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Richard,
I respect what you do. But people using sketchup need LO. It's its primary use! People who use sketchup would feel way better if they seamlessly would use LO without a single uneeded change in interface.
@phillip h said:
Personally, I believe any effort to reduce the differences in the interface cannot but help make it more intuitive and therefore, more attractive.
And there are hundreds of uneeded changes in interface!
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@jql said:
Richard,
I respect what you do. But people using sketchup need LO. It's its primary use! People who use sketchup would feel way better if they seamlessly would use LO without a single uneeded change in interface.
Totally agree with you mate! Weirdly though I see LayOut having application way beyond SU (if some critical tools were added).
The question beckons I guess, which application needs the modifications for functionality to become homogeneous? Its likely a little bit of this and a little bit of that!
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@richard said:
Its likely a little bit of this and a little bit of that!
I also agree... a little bit should be more than enough. However all things that are repeated should behave the same.
Consistency in UI is key for software. Learning is easy and, if you use some specific parts of your software, like LO or a specific plugin, it helps if their UI are also based on the main UI.
The result is less learning and thinking on how to do it and more doing it!
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Perhaps it would serve this topic well were it recast as a poll and made a sticky. This seems like an important discussion that has the potential to drive the future of product development. It is the kind of discussion that should involve the leaders of this community if not whole membership. I'm sure we could benefit from observations and experience of those more accomplished than those of beginners like me. Just sayin', I'd like to hear more.
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@phillip h said:
Perhaps it would serve this topic well were it recast as a poll and made a sticky. This seems like an important discussion that has the potential to drive the future of product development. It is the kind of discussion that should involve the leaders of this community if not whole membership. I'm sure we could benefit from observations and experience of those more accomplished than those of beginners like me. Just sayin', I'd like to hear more.
There is the Layout wish list, that I'm pretty sure the developers are keeping an eye on!
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@richard said:
There is the Layout wish list, that I'm pretty sure the developers are keeping an eye on!
Thanks Richard. You are too kind sir. I just think that discussion on this topic would be an excellent opportunity for me to learn new perspectives from (as we sometimes say in Texas) the old hands. I do hope they are listening.Phillip
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@pbacot said:
Richard, Do you use LayOut to design your houses and things. Then you put it in SU?
Just for your interest mate, here is a rough sketch design for 8 x 2 storey units, done this morning with layout in around 4-5 hrs from scratch.
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@richard said:
@pbacot said:
Richard, Do you use LayOut to design your houses and things. Then you put it in SU?
Just for your interest mate, here is a rough sketch design for 8 x 2 storey units, done this morning with layout in around 4-5 hrs from scratch.
[attachment=0:29lrnd0w]<!-- ia0 -->1600_2.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment:29lrnd0w]
Well, that could be drawn inside sketchup even faster... And then you could convert that into a 3D model and render in Thea in an IBL background in the same day.
Using LO like you would use Acad or Illustrator surely is a nice topic!
Though Sketchup is a 3D modeler I use it for all my 2D drawings and studies too and then send them to layout with a click of a button. This might be the reverse of what you do and that is also an interesting discussion in itsel.
However, the topic here is about SU+LO and how they are not following same principles in UI when they should. It has to do with how fluid is our connection between both apps, not how fast you model or draw on each of them when you're used to them.
This topic is obviously for people wich work with both and consider them important at the fullest scope possible.
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