Suggestions to improve Layout
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Can I take a sec and mention how awesome it is that guys like Marc and Andrew, and Chris, and Thomas are so active on these forums? That people like me, who use your software every day to make a living, have an avenue to communicate with the developers is really wonderful.
I wrote this post in the leader text thread, but now I am thinking that I should make it it's own thread, for searches to find it, if for no other reason.
Overall, I think the core functionality of Layout is very good. The linking to SU works great and the documents come out looking fantastic. I ma one of the ones who has been very very pleased to see that LO has been continually updated and improved. It is far superior to the original. The only core functionality that I understand is less than perfect is the dxf export function, but luckily I don't need that. But all in all, I enjoy my time spent in the LO workspace. That being said, some workflow tweaks would really really improve my experience, primarily by reducing the number of mouse clicks it takes to create a complex document.
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If you are editing text, or a line segment, or whatever, and you flip to another software (SU to take an area measurement, for example), and then you come back to LO, the edit are no longer active. So, then you have to place the cursor back on the entity, double-click the entity, click to place the curser, and then you can start editing. If you are changing something in a group, then the number of clicks can get to 6 or more, in an addition to moving the curser around). Go through that process a couple hundred times a day and you start to notice it being annoying. Seems like every other software out there maintains curser location and edit state, so why can't LO?
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Custom placing of dimensions is cumbersome and takes endless mouse clicking. To have to double-click a dimension, then a well timed single-click on the dimension text, and then drag it to one or the other ends of the dimension line every time I need to adjust spacing, etc is a big time suck. Especially small dimensions because then I have to zoom in because often times the text box won't become active unless you get close. I probably customize 60% of the dimensions I place, and I miss SU's ability to right click and choose start, middle, end. Or, even better, a keyboard shortcut to move the text around would be awesome.
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Can't set a keyboard shortcut for placing the dimension text inside, middle, or outside of the line. So, every time you want to change, it is a coin toss whether it is quicker to just edit it and manually place it, or is it quicker to move my cursor across the screen to click a button and then bring it back again?
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Add a radio button for setting the active layer instead of making the active layer the one you happen to have highlighted. I have meticulous and well-practiced layer control in all of my softwares, but, in LO, I just never seem to have the item on the layer that I wanted it on. I know why, but it doesn't change the fact that the present condition makes it too easy to get it wrong. And getting everything back on the right layers can be very time consuming. The way SU does it, with the layer 0 and a hard set button would work great. (don't get me started on SU's other layer issues, haha)
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I like that the esc key closes down an edit, that works very well for me. I actually wish the text in SU worked the same way as I am always hitting esc and losing my text in SU, but that's not that big of a deal. I like how it works in LO. What I don't like is that if you edit text with the font window, when you hit esc it makes the font window disappear and the text remains editable and you have to hit esc again to close it and then the keyboard shortcut to get the font window back. I get to play that game tens of times a day.
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I wish I could right-click to lock an entity, just like in SU. I know you can lock layers, but that is not precise enough for what I do without a serious number of layers, and even then I would invariably have everything on the wrong one anyway... It would be very handing to right-click lock things, or groups of selected things
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I wish you could dimension in perspective, like you can in SU. Really, SU's dimensioning with LO's editing would be perfect. I am always dimensioning things in perspective, and so I have to do that in SU, with the whole host of layer, scene, and style settings so I can then display it in the LO document. Also, with the dimensioning in SU, I can't control the model stroke in LO too much because the dimensions change, too. It would be nice to set the SU model the way I want and then dimension with LO. That would save a ton of time, and make the SU file less messy.
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It would be great if the bounding box for SU viewports was the actual model and not just a square. Inadvertent clicking (or, even worse, the dreaded double-click, making it active in SU, which then takes esc and undo to fix) and moving of the model (unless there was a right-click lock option!) would become much less frequent.
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When you place a leader text, the arrow and the text come together, but not grouped. So, if you want to make copies of a leader text you have already placed (maybe because it has the text filled and you can't set the tool default to do that) it takes two clicks (or a drag, which can be difficult in densely packed drawings) to grab the arrow and the text. It wouldn't be good if they were just grouped, as then you couldn't move the test around without a double click, but what if a shift-click, for example, would select both the arrow and the text as a unit? Also, cut and pasting a leader text breaks the bond between the arrow and the text? Shouldn't that always stay slaved?
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A dynamic cloud tool would be really really handy. Like really really. Mark-ups are kind of difficult without one. I know there is one in the scrapbook, but it isn't dynamic so it always looks very poor after scaling and placing. I envision a line tool option that is just a wavy, cloud-like line. Acts like a line, can stroke and fill like a line, looks like a cloud. I would definitely use it often.
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I would like a preference setting so that all imported SU models always come in with the background off, as that is the choice I use 99.5% of the time.
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We still can't draw lines in model space, with dimensions that read model space dimensions. I know we can set dimensions manually; but it is way too easy to forget to change it back to auto once you start dimensioning the model and then start placing wrong dimensions. That probability is so scary for me that I never use manual dimensions, ever. And so then, if I am tracing over a model, I have make sure I have the trace lines on a separate layer that I can turn off for dimensioning. Better than sending drawings out with the wrong dims on them, though.
Whew, quite the list when I put it to paper. Can you tell that I have spent lots of time with SU and LO? I eagerly await reactions and thoughts!
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Great list --7,8,11,12 especially.
Actually in 8, It should be HARDER TO MAKE A SCENE "MODIFIED"as that is something we HARDLY EVER WANT TO DO. Thanks OTB et al at TSU.
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Great list...
Many of them have been on the wish list for some time (I.e. the dynamic cloud tool) so hopefully the LO team at Trimble will be able to include these in future versions...
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I agree for most things though there are some that I find much more important than others.
I fully agree with the usefulness of Layout and that it as improved greatly over this couple of years I've been using it...
For me the most important features that one should consider removing from layout are:
1 - Having to drag mouse for moving things around wich is cumbersome at best,
2 - Accidental double clicks on viewports (as in your list)
3 - Being forced to move around by dragging wich makes accidental double clicks on the viewport very prone to happen.
4 - Dragging for moving (again?:P) wich often happens accidentaly when you are trying to box select something and start by clicking on what seemed to be an empty space, but was a viewport box after all, or a text box, or shape box, or a group, or almost any object you draw on layout that might be seen as a white filled box...This are the things that are most cubersome for me in layout, making it less intuitive.
What's funny is that this is specially true for people that are used to work with sketchup, wich is everyone that works with layout and I can't thing of anyone else...
What's even more funny is that intuitiveness on command functionality is where Sketchup shines and Layout not that much, so why not have exactly the same input methods for both programs? I tend to loose 15 to 30 minutes for adapting myself each time I change from one app to the other though when I started with Layout I was expecting exactly the same intuitiveness of use...
So:
1 - I wish I could have an option to move only by pressing "M" (or an icon);
2 - Rotate only by pressing "R" (or an icon);
3 - Scale only by pressing "S" (or an icon);
4 - Use bounding box only to have a larger or smaller viewport, text boxes or to reshape dimensions, nothing else...
5 - On viewports scale through "S" should suffice and it would correspond to scaling exactly the image one sees on the viewport. I don't know why but layout has a way of making it difficult to do that either on ortho views or perspective. Checking on and off "preserve scale on resize" will make the viewport jump and recenter itself on the center of scene camera wich is VERY annoying.
6 - Have bounding boxes align to rotated dimensions as to any rotated shape even when we draw them originally rotated (wich is everytime as I guess noone rotates dimensions)
7 - Make Dimensions bounding box "stretch" instead of "scale" dimensions (the distance between reference points and reference lines increases when scaling, messing around with my dotted reference lines that distance should be kept the same when scaling dimensions).But for short:
- Lock viewport for editing while still allowing it to move
- Ability do disable drag for moving around things, replacing it for "M" or icon on the toolbar.
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@jql said:
I agree for most things though there are some that I find much more important than others.
But for short:- Lock viewport for editing while still allowing it to move
- Ability do disable drag for moving around things, replacing it for "M" or icon on the toolbar.
JQL/OTB/all
Thanks for you detailed requests...99% I agree
Please........TSU...........listen to these guys
That said.....and.....for now....I either isolate all SU viewports in LO by layer...and lock that layer. (allows free flow selections/no risk double click/etc.)
I understand that this is limited... as soon as you unlock the layer....all bets are off.That said:
Try grouping you're SU viewports per sheet(and/or incorporate layer option above).....this will isolate/mitigate the inadvertent "double click" activate/edit in SU situation.
Text/Arrows/etc may require adjustment after move...but often they will anyway.
Best,
C
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BTW... Why is this posted in the bugs section...?
@Mods... Please move to wish section...
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Done.
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and while it's being improved can we address the export issues...
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14%26amp;t=55435
Thanks.
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I was hoping that, if I put it in the bugs section, that the higher-ups might be more inclined to read it. We all know that posting in the wish list is like standing in the desert talking to yourself, haha
Thanks for everyone adding their experiences and thoughts! Let's build this to critical mass and maybe we will start to see some of these make it into the software.
JQL, your point about wanting LO to have functionality like SU is very well made. I have felt that way since the beginning of LO, years ago. I never quite understood why there was some wheel re-invention going on in LO, especially when things work so well with SU.
For me, improvements boil down to wanting less clicking, less dragging, and more keyboard shortcut control.
I hope the SU guys see this thread
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Marc, you have brought joy to my heart and hope to my soul!
Some days, I spend more time with LO than I do with my wife, so it would be safe to say I am heavily invested in improving my experience.
It is fantastic to know that the team has read these thoughts and suggestions; it can't hurt to have some insight into a "power" user's experience, right?
I eagerly await hearing your responses and thanks for taking the time to let us know that you guys are reading this thread!
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Hi Chuck and poster, great to see some meaningful discussions about LO. I like you guys use it daily and no doubt spend more time with it than my wife also so as far as she's concerned it can stay like it is!!
I am putting together a list of improvements and tweaks also; just need some extended time to put them all together along with explanations.
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Hi all-
I'm posting mostly to apologize for not responding earlier. I've been heading up a large project for the past month and haven't had much time to spare.
I have forwarded this thread to the design team for perusal. Rest assured that all of the items in this thread are on our radar, and several of them are on my personal wish list as well.
Thanks,
Marc -
Hey Marc, I got excited when I saw you posted today!
Thanks for the status report; I eagerly await further development. I am available if anyone needs clarifications, testing, etc.
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Marc! Please don't forget us!
I know base camp has probably thrown a wrench in everyone's SOP, but I really thought we were going to get some traction on improving Layout
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I'm sure the LayOut team won't forget you/us...
However, please remember that there's app. a year until next release...
I wouldn't expect much of these feature requests to make it into a possible maintenance release before SU2015...
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Don't worry, I haven't forgotten. I actually started hacking around on #10 while riding the bus up to BaseCamp on Monday. It's something I've been wanting to do for about a year but haven't managed to fit it in yet. #2 and #9 are also on my personal list.
I'd love to be able to report back that we're addressing every item, but understand that your list represents about a release's worth of effort. Multiply that by every wish-list out there (granted, there's some overlap) and I'll be busy until I retire. Which isn't a bad thing, but does explain why there are a lot of disappointed wish-listers out there.
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For clouding, would it not be better just to have a style that wrapped objects such as text? Custom edge styles would accomplish more with less I would think.
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@krisidious said:
For clouding, would it not be better just to have a style that wrapped objects such as text? Custom edge styles would accomplish more with less I would think.
This would work for objects, but what if you wanted to call attention to a portion of a SU instance? Of making notations over imported PDF's. To me, being able to manually "draw" the cloud would probably be more useful on a day to day basis. YMMV...
@marcdurant said:
Don't worry, I haven't forgotten. I actually started hacking around on #10 while riding the bus up to BaseCamp on Monday. It's something I've been wanting to do for about a year but haven't managed to fit it in yet. #2 and #9 are also on my personal list.
Awesome!! While I know that I threw out a whole release worth of wish lists , #2 is one of the ones that would have the most meaningful time savings on my workflow. Thanks for the update and I wish I was there at Basecamp to shake your hand and say thanks in person!
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You can put a line style around an inserted instance of an SU model as well. However I agree that free forming is needed. But, you can always make a rectangle or circle and then change it's style properties to be outlined...
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That's a good point! If I could draw a circle and then apply a line style of a cloud, that would be great, for sure!
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