Where are these height dimensions?
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Hi Aureus, hi folks.
Here we use another symbol for this kind of annotation and I am pretty sure that there are probably dozens of variations on that theme around our planet.
If SketchUp (SU) is to be able to incorporate all these possibilities, it would become another behemoth, and expensive, CAD program.
Lets keep it simple and use plugins to implement fancy stuff. Otherwise, if it becomes complex and pricey, it will loose its appeal as an efficient 3D sketching program.
The symbol you show can be made as a component and then a text object can be attached to it with the leader not showing.
To get the heigth of an endpoint, use the Text tool. It gives, as the default text, the X,Y and Z coordinates of the endpoint. The Z is the heigth.
Just ideas.
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Hi Aureus, hi folks.
I agree with you that adding a few bells and wistles to the dimensionning and annotations in SketchUp (SU) would probably not add too much to its price.
Maybe that can be a feature of SU Pro, justifying even more the 495$ vs 0$ for the free version.
My only fear is that some people will want more ways to draw rectangles and then circles, and then arcs, and then polygons and then ... etc.
All of this is very valid and I would like them in a Pro version as long as its price don't go up to far from the actual 500 $ (approx.) value.
I don't need, and I am certain that many others also dont need, another AutoCAD or Catia with their zillions of icons and menus and sub menus, etc.
Wait a second ... with dozens of plugins, SU's interface begins to look like Catia and other complex software. OK, I said nothing
Lets evolve, but not too much at a time. Lets keep SU looking simple if we want it to appeal to a lot of people that are not necessarily savvy with 3D and CAD. So, yes, a free version with a decent set of tool and a Pro version with a more complete palette. Both of them able to grow with the help of plugins.
Again, these are only my ideas.
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Salut, Jean.
Thank you for the answer.
I don't feel I can completely agree with you on this matter. Before I elaborate this, just one point to make things clear: I didn't say it's impossible to do in SketchUp and Layout what I need; it's perfectly possible though not very handy.
Now, let's move on.
I deliberately said "in my part of the world", indicating that I'm aware elsewhere can be completely different. Hardly, I think introduction of this kind of annotation (and even all of them from different regions of the world) would make SU and LO big, complex and pricey application. In the terms of size (I'm not a programmer) perhaps few KB? As for the price, the developers must do something between two releases in order to sell the same program again, right?
So it seems to me that fixing a few bugs and introducing a couple of tools doesn't necessarily lead to a new, bigger price.Respect
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@unknownuser said:
I remember, for instance, it wasn't before one year of using SketchUp when I found out that "xn" or "/n" makes SIMPLE "move" tool more powerful.
Really? A whole year? I wonder why it took so long for you to find that. Does that mean there are other things you haven't found out about how to use SketchUp? I'm just curious about things like this because it isn't like they hide these things and there's plenty of information out there about things like the array functions or Move and Rotate.
I expect there will be more features added with the next version of SU and LO although I think it's asking a lot to expect that the program would be customized to include regionally used symbols. Especially when the capability to create them to suit your application already exists.
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"Really? A whole year? I wonder why it took so long for you to find that."
Dave, you missed my point. It took so much perhaps I was a typical user happy to be able to quickly model something by using a free program. Maybe I didn't investigate so much. Or because then I didn't have the Internet at home and Sketchup Help always leads there.
I was trying to explain that things on the surface can be simple while in the depth can contain something more. And I did so because it seems to me that whenever someone says: "I'd like if SketchUp would have ability to..." you can be sure there will be a guy screaming: "Noooo, that will make SketchUp more complicated!"
And if regional differences are not important then...then I don't know what to say about this argument. We can be happy that SU works both in metric and imperial system... In the US both are used but here almost no one knows how much is tall someone who claims his height is 5'10''.
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This is a terrain of subtle discussion. Adding new things don't make anything more complex by itself.
Just consider one case. In SketchUp you're able to type some text. At the moment there are tens or even hundreds (I'm not sure) font types integrated in SketchUp. Adding some new font types (especially if required by users) won't make the application more complex or complicated but more complete.
The same goes for those symbols. If simplicity is really an ultimate goal - then SketchUp has already overdone. One type of dimensions (say arrow endpoints) is perfectly enough to make you know the size of things you're modeling. Then why slash endpoints? Obviously to architects' liking and use. You got my point?Few more things can be said about simplicity and appeal of any application. I think that good formula can be "SIMPLE ON THE SURFACE, COMPLEX IN THE DEPTH". You can create a simple and user-friendly interface with default tool bars consisting of basic tools and most of users in most cases may be happy. But sooner or later one will wish something more advanced and it's good if a program has it already even hidden. I remember, for instance, it wasn't before one year of using SketchUp when I found out that "xn" or "/n" makes SIMPLE "move" tool more powerful. That day I was like this:
Simple on the surface, complex in the depth.
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Hi Aureus,
Instead of complaining about this missing symbol+height, (by now you do know it doesn’t already exist), could you please describe extensively how you would like this extra feature to be and how to use it. Maybe as if you were writing its part of the manual. Purpose, how to use it, options, its limitations, etc.I’m sure that if your suggestion is valuable to SketchUp, the SU developers will look into it. I'm certain they do listen to suggestions.
p.s. I’m not against such a feature but then I would like it to be some feature that could be customized by any user. Not just for where you (and I, who knows?) live, and not just for heights.
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The next thing is in what way that tool would work?
You choose it, pick a vertex or line and here you go - you get a symbol and value. Then you can have more options to customise it to your liking, like in the case of 'Dimension' tool.
If you don't preset your refference point yourself the SU origin is chosen automatically [+-0,00]. The height itself follows the blue-axis. -
Hi, Gerrit.
Thank you for you post. I see you're a practical man.
Let's be practical then.
The purpose of these symbols which include certain numbers is indication of altitude (relative and absolute) of different levels in a building (floors, landings etc) and its surrounding. They are given on section drawings as opposed to similar symbols with same function used on site and floor plans. I think that the sketchy image I posted above gives an idea how they look like and what they serve to.
For now I'm sure they're used by architects in Balkan Peninsula region. I cannot say more than this about their usage by professions and regions. What I can say is that I haven't had any design during my architectural studies done without them. They are...a part of documentation, tiny but necessary.
How can we make them in SketchUp now?
We can draw few lines (which resemble the symbol) accompanied with text (say +5,70 [a comma used here is a decimal separator unlike some other countries]). Saved as a component the same symbol can be used on different places on section drawings (done by 'Create Group from Slice' function + 'make faces' plugin). The text itself differs from altitude to altitude so we need to make every particular component unique in order to change it - manually. The height value can be given by applying one of those TIG's plugins.
Or, we can use the method suggested by Jean.
Or, we can invent something more elegant. But no matter how inventive and imaginative we are it's for sure that one part of entire work must be done manually. We don't do that when we use the command for ordinary dimensional work. We just select the 'Dimension' tool, pick our reference points and - voilà! Later the entity info gives us possibility to change text position, font style, choose different endpoints and alike.
Move on to the next step: how to introduce more dimensionning options? Theoretically we can make some branches to the existing tool or we can make some new tool. A quick review of SU tools shows us that SU uses 'one tool - one command' principle. What I mean by this is that if you choose 'Push/Pull' tool for instance, you won't see any other sub-command. The other thing is that you're able to repeat the same pushing to different faces by simple double clicking on them or you can make an array by using the 'Move' tool.
So I doubt that SU developers would place any new command inside an existing one.What is left for me is to hope that one day I'll see a specific tool for getting an altitude value.
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Aureus,
I am afraid there won't be any changes (enhancements) in the SU dimensioning tools. This sort of "job" has been taken over by LayOut and there you can create whatever elegant version (and custom variant) of any drafting symbols and dimensioning things - so the answer by the developers would always be "use LayOut instead".
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Probably you're 100 per cent right, Csaba.
This time let's drop mentioning those ones who don't have LO. Still this imposes a bit of headache to a user who considers some other program for editing and documentation-preparing superior to LO or he/she is better accustomed to. Especially if we know that dimensioning is, if I may say so, one of the weak spots of SU. Even better example than mine is lack of angular dimensions but this has already been discussed elsewhere. (See the link http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/sketchup/oCRCdqPzE5A)
Funny thing: John Bachus said "I'm not surprised that people find dimensioning important, but I am surprised that it made the top ten list". Well, I'm surprised that he's surprised.
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Anyway, one thing that Jean said came under my attention.
He said in Canada they use another symbol for this kind of annotation.
I'm keen to see it.And not only that. I'd gladly see what kind of symbols and measures different professions from different regions use for their work.
So I was thinking to transform this topic a bit and turn it into something more fun and more educational. I hope that it can still fit into the range of topics allowed on this forum so the mods would agree and people are willing to take part.
My idea is: let's show those symbols accompanied with measures that different professions from different regions use for their work.
A small jpg or png image or pdf file (especially if drawn in SU or LO) would be absolutely desirable. A short text of explanation (like we use it here [where exactly] for that and that) would be required too.
Will we play this game for the sake of fun and education?
P.S. CatchUP no. 17 has just arrived. Let's have a look...
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Hi Aureus, hi folks.
@aureus said:
Anyway, one thing that Jean said came under my attention.
He said in Canada they use another symbol for this kind of annotation.
I'm keen to see it.In some jobs, we use this:
Level anotation.skp
We also use the Metric system and the coma as the decimal.Just ideas.
Jean
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Thank you, Jean.
That's exactly what I had on my mind.
An interesting symbol, I guess you typed those values manually since the real length of that line is 2.59 m and not 258.95 m. But it doesn't matter, thank you again.
At least one thing I've learned from your post - the metric system is used in Canada and you use comma as decimal separator.From this perspective, when I look at Canada I can conclude: so close to the US - yet so different.
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@aureus said:
Thank you, Jean.
......since the real length of that line is 2.59 m and not 258.95 m. ....Hi Aureus,
Actually the edge length is 2.589500m with precision set to max.I know about, and have used the height symbol that described earlier on. Also this one that Jean presented. But whatever symbol you use, as long as you get the message accross.
Maybe you can get TIG's plugin "Add height above datum" working for you (maybe after donating to him What if you integrate its 'height text entity' into a nested prefered symbol component that you explode after placing it. Haven't tried it enough.p.s. I don't use that many plugins (only basic ones like 'Weld'), since I basically only explain basic SketchUp tools and solutions to other users when questions arise. That's my main use of SketchUp, for answering questions. (which may sound strange
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@wo3dan said:
@aureus said:
Thank you, Jean.
......since the real length of that line is 2.59 m and not 258.95 m. ....Hi Aureus,
Actually the edge length is 2.589500m with precision set to max.I know about, and have used the height symbol that described earlier on. Also this one that Jean presented. But whatever symbol you use, as long as you get the message accross.
Maybe you can get TIG's plugin "Add height above datum" working for you (maybe after donating to him What if you integrate its 'height text entity' into a nested prefered symbol component that you explode after placing it. Haven't tried it enough.p.s. I don't use that many plugins (only basic ones like 'Weld'), since I basically only explain basic SketchUp tools and solutions to other users when questions arise. That's my main use of SketchUp, for answering questions. (which may sound strange
)I know, I just noticed that the separator is after "8" and not after number "2" which gives 100 times bigger value. But as I said, it's not that important since we saw at least one symbol and got accustomed with system used in Canada.
As for your attitude towards plugins...I think I understand you quite well, Gerrit.
Very often mastering native SU tools can bring you more benefit than trying to figure out how certain plugin work and why you don't get a desired result.I like to change methods in order to see what's the fastest one in a certain situation. And for example, I'd suggest everyone who has a lot of groups or components (like houses) placed on a terrain and need to edit them quite often to set up new keyboard shortcuts (in my case 3 adjoining keys) for 'previous view', 'zoom extents' and 'zoom window' and use them in order to shorten time of navigation and selecting. Not to mention that it helps a lot when you end up 'nowhere' (in the space between lines in wireframe mode).
On the other hand I don't know what I'd do if there wasn't 'Vector Push Pull' tool and his 'friends' - Joint and Normal Push Pull. In my case that's one of the most essential and used plugins.
Cheers.
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@aureus said:
......As for your attitude towards plugins...I think I understand you quite well, Gerrit.
Very often mastering native SU tools can bring you more benefit than trying to figure out how certain plugin work and why you don't get a desired result.
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Sorry, but you got me wrong. That's not at all my attitude towards plugins. And, even more, this would not do any justice to all the plugin writers who spend their valuable time and knowledge to write them.
My attitude concerning plugins was and still is (though for new users) that one needs to understand SketchUp first and only then gradually move over to also using plugins. (I didn’t touch any plugin during the first year playing with SU)
I enjoyed (and still do like) participating in discussions on how to tackle 3D modelling questions with SketchUp. As for plugins, I feel that when benefiting from using them in a professional way, I ought to pay for them or at least make a donation. My only “use” now is limited to seeing how they work and maybe some feedback to the writer. And since (for now at least) I don’t do anything other than helping out some users with their SketchUp issues, I normally stick to basic free plugins.
Plugins are a great way to level up SketchUp.p.s. Jean’s method to apply a customized height component including plain text is simple but will do quite well.
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Gerrit said: "Plugins are a great way to level up SketchUp."
They are. But I feel there is more sense in pressing the SU developers to better the bare SU body in terms of efficiency, functionality, stability and overall performance than sitting and expecting people to spend their own time in making great plugins. After all, it's their program.
One more word about plugins. I remember that once (in one day precisely) I downloaded I huge bunch of free plugins. As Jean pointed very well, that's the situation when the SU interface does look like CATIA (if most of them are visible of course). But no matter how many plugins you have it seems to me that SU always starts much faster than those monster programs with million functions and several GB in size.
After trying them I deleted the most since I realized there are some that repeat some functions of other plugins and some other perform the same function with more reliability and speed. At the moment there are, I think, several plugins with 'make roof' function. Over the same base (face) some of them need one second to produce a desired roof and some of them ask several seconds for the same action and result.
I guess it all has to do with the algorithm applied. And you were totally right when you mentioned knowledge needed for this kind of work. And bright mind, I'd add.
It was a pleasure having you here again, Gerrit. Come around any time.
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