Sketchup 64 bit?
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@rv1974 said:
Generally dumb question:
If staying low-bit is so refreshingly cool, why not develop 16 (or even 8 bit) version?
16bit allows for ~65,000 individual values..
i don't know how many values something like a square polygon requires but with 16 bit sketchup, i'd guess we'd run out of memory somewhere under 10,000 entities.. and sketchup still performs very well with that size model..
32bit brings the number up to 4billion+ integer values.. if you had a sketchup model which would cause you to run out of memory, it doesn't matter anyway.. the model would be so incredibly sluggish that it would be absolutely worthless..
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@jbacus said:
Oddly, perhaps, the single strongest argument for a 64-bit "version" of SketchUp hasn't really come up in this thread yet. Developers who implement .skp import|export in their applications using our freely-licensed SDK will benefit from 64-bit builds of our precompiled libraries when they begin shipping 64-bit builds of their applications. They don't strictly speaking need them, but it would simplify matters greatly if they could have them.
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a few years ago, i was thinking collada would be the ultimate means of taking sketchup models in and out of other applications..
doesn't seem like it's going that route though.. at least with the other apps i use..
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@jason_maranto said:
To clarify -- I'm always interested in performance benefits for all users...
Exactly, right? And that's what I care about as well. That's why I think it is worth spending time explaining these technical issues in such detail— I'd hate for folks to have the wrong expectations about the benefits available.
Whether you think of SketchUp as a toy or not, performance is really the key issue here. "64-bit" just isn't a technology which delivers the kinds of performance improvement you're looking for. Wouldn't you rather have our development team working on stuff that will make a material difference for you?
john
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I like how sketchup is so small, it's a tiny program or at least it used to be. Would it be so difficult to be re-written ? I am aware of my technology shortcomings, it's just that we were shown 64 bit as the way ahead by so many 3d apps and operating systems. Eventually 32 bit will be legacy code, i think that is a given right ?
btw i'm glad you have a presence here in the forum John.
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@jbacus said:
Whether you think of SketchUp as a toy or not, performance is really the key issue here. "64-bit" just isn't a technology which delivers the kinds of performance improvement you're looking for. Wouldn't you rather have our development team working on stuff that will make a material difference for you?
I absolutely would like to see the team working on stuff that would -- however there are 2 parts to that:
- As yet I don't see that they are working on anything that will make material gains to me.
- I've demonstrated clearly that I know precisely what 64-bit support will mean, and I want it still.
Look, here's the thing, part of the reason I've been so aggressive towards you is you tend to cop an attitude of superiority... whether you mean to or not.
What I mean is comments like this:
@jbacus said:
"64-bit" just isn't a technology which delivers the kinds of performance improvement you're looking for.
I know precisely what I am looking for, and I know that 64-bit will deliver it. To say that I don't and it won't is insulting to my intelligence. Furthermore, you often say things dismissive of the intelligence of SketchUp users on the whole... we get enough of that from outsiders -- we don't need it coming from the top guy of the SketchUp dev team.
I resolved that if you would continue to treat us as idiots, then I would treat you as an idiot as well. I don't need excuses from you, I will help pay to keep your software in business based on what you do, not what you say... you will not be successful in convincing me to do otherwise.
So I suggest you use your time to write new code rather than post on forums arguing why we don't need XZY feature... I suspect if you did, you would find that alot more material gains would be made.
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
I know precisely what I am looking for, and I know that 64-bit will deliver it. To say that I don't and it won't is insulting to my intelligence.
He didn't say you didn't know what 64bit will deliver. You're reading a bit much into it.
He agreed earlier that 64bit have a benefit for render engines - and that, and the SDK, was one of the few areas where 64bit had any use. Further he does outline that it is possible for render engines to run their stuff outside the SketchUp process - so it's not like the current situation is a complete blocker for 64bit engines. I would think that is one of the reasons why 64bit doesn't float to the top of the to-do list. After years of being under Google which focused mainly on integration with their mapping services there are many many things that could be done to improve the product in other direction. And we're yet to see a full version Trimble SketchUp release.What he dismissed was all the other misconceptions that SketchUp will miraculously run faster or more stable. As people will be might disappointed with a 64bit SketchUp if they expect it to run faster.
The point of tension here appear to be mainly about different priority for the various features. I got mine, you got your, who knows where SketchUp's are at the moment. They've gone through internal changes this last year with new owners. And who knows what priorities Trimble sets. I guess we get a first hint on the next release.
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Base camp was not encouraging... when he does post, the things he says have not been encouraging... so I can only base my opinions on the information available.
Well, that and the track record -- which has not been stellar. Which combined with the fact that it looks and sounds very much like "meet the new boss, same as the old boss", leads me to be a bit pessimistic.
I would love to be optimistic, and that is more my normal state -- but I have seen nothing to give any hope.
Best,
Jason. -
I'm positive you could not be directing your post at me... because that would just be stupid.
But then maybe I'm giving you too much credit...
You sell SketchUp right? Well where do you suppose SketchUp would be without all of the 3rd party plugin developers?
OK -- so now that we've established that insulting 3rd party developers is idiotic to suicidal for Sketchup developers... lets establish part 2.
Why, oh why, in the world should a 3rd party developer be forced to reinvent core programmatic elements that SketchUp has made no warranty they will not completely alter in near future builds?
Meaning, if I were to put alot of time and energy into doing just what you suggest -- what is to say they (SketchUp dev team) would not wipe out all the competitive benefits I've gained by my hard work at any point in time(and with no warning)?
In fact this scenario is extremely likely -- so as a 3rd party developer I am not touching that with a ten foot pole... the work should be done by SketchUp so that all interested parties benefit equally rather than each party re-inventing the wheel.
But more than that, any and all packages that are serious about supporting their 3rd party developers have already done so -- draw your own conclusions about the significance of SketchUp (Bacus) choosing to ignore this fact.
Best,
Jason. -
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2009/08/a_64-bit_reality_check.html
nothing more to say.
The SU dev team should consider [url]carefully[/url]which projects they want to put resources on next. A 64-bit port of the already Large-Address-Aware SU (x86: 3gb / x64: 4gb) is surely a large and complex project that is of no apparent benefit to most of the users and only needed for sluggish plugin developers not willing to develop their own memory handling.
Modeling or alreay navigating/inferencing in complex models is bottlenecked by the rendering pipeline which is bound by the CPU/GPU and not by the available address room. Therefore SU models which consume more than ~2gb memory would be still slow/unusable even with a 128bit version (aka 'mine is bigger').
What really needs to be done and should be #1 on the 2do list of the dev team are speed improvements in the areas already mentioned above maybe by doing e.g. a profiling of the mentiond areas (if not already done) and rewrite the affected parts of the source in fast Assembly machine language (if not already done).
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@jason_maranto said:
...because that would just be stupid.
But then maybe I'm giving you too much credit...
why should anybody communicate with you obviously not being able to follow an argumentation and permanently offending everybody who is not of the same opinion as you... being rude speeks for yourself and surely will not produce a positive perception by John.
@jason_maranto said:
Well where do you suppose SketchUp would be without all of the 3rd party plugin developers?
the majority of our customers do not use plug-ins, most of them even do not know that plug-ins (or the SCF) do exist... probably because they do not want to abuse SU as a replacement for a full blown BIM tool or Raytracer or NURBS surface modeler but a fast 3d sketcher suitable for creating 'easy' models for presentation purposes.
[snip]
blabla
[/snip]have a nice day
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@jason_maranto said:
Forget free version "customers"...
sure, we do not have any of them... we do sell the Pro version only facepalm
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I'm not interested in Johns opinion of me -- I already have formed my opinion of him, and therefore his thoughts on me are really irrelevant -- meaning I think he should be fired (based on past performance).
For that matter I decided some time ago that you were also irrelevant as well, so it's no surprise you find me rude -- I find you to be a SketchUp shilling twit... and I'm not terribly good at hiding that.
Forget free version "customers", they don't even count and you know it -- this isn't Google land any more and if Trimble doesn't find a way to convert those "customers" to paying users they will simply cease supporting them... at which point the free version users will simply move onto the next free package.
As for Pro version users, I've rarely come across one who isn't using some form of rendering engine or other 3rd party functionality add-on... what is the point of even having Pro if all you need is a easy/fast "sketcher"? (if you say Layout I'll laugh my head off -- hardly anybody says Layout is deciding factor in going Pro for them... as cool as it is, it is simply too immature at this point)
Best,
Jason. -
I don't know -- I think form Z 7 is a pretty decently comparative product (although far more advanced), maybe once they release a new Bonzai3d it might be a better direct comparison.
But I'm not really interested in drawing comparisons here, other than to say that should I choose to move on from SketchUp Pro (very likely) there are options that I already have done work with and am pleased to give my money to instead.
I use SketchUp Pro because of Maxwell -- not the other way around, so my first issue will always be what can SketchUp do to improve my workflow with Maxwell. As far as I'm concerned Maxwell is a stellar product that puts SketchUp development to shame with a similar sized team.
But that isn't hard, practically every software I've used has put SketchUp development to shame over the last 5 years.
Best,
Jason. -
Sorry Jason i deleted my post i thought i'd stay out of it.
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@jason_maranto said:
But I'm not really interested in drawing comparisons here, other than to say that should I choose to move on from SketchUp Pro (very likely)
dunno.. i think that's your best course of action.. make the decision final & quit hoping for SU to do what you want..
your hair will thank you.
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@unknownuser said:
make the decision final & quit hoping for SU to do what you want..
your hair will thank you.
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@unknownuser said:
@jason_maranto said:
But I'm not really interested in drawing comparisons here, other than to say that should I choose to move on from SketchUp Pro (very likely)
dunno.. i think that's your best course of action.. make the decision final & quit hoping for SU to do what you want..
your hair will thank you.
I lost most of it long ago, but I seem to be holding steady these days...Yeah, you are probably right, I had actually already made the decision to go that way once I got wind of the terms of SketchUp's sale... but I was persuaded to wait. I've been very disappointed in SketchUp for a while, and I can't say that I think things will get better (for my concerns)... I suspect many other users feel much the same -- and this is borne out by most of the people I admire here moving partially or fully to other packages.
Now, if I was a BIM oriented user I might be excited by the possibilities, but that means absolutely nothing to me.
Best,
Jason. -
Wow, this got pretty passionate. Jason, I thought you were in the architecture end of business, but I just noticed the illustration/cartoons aspect. What are you specifically looking for? For me, the BIM use is already there and just needs the ability to quantify graphically. Is it speed? We all want that as well.
I also think you are not giving enough credit for what John has done with SU to date. Not that I have any right to direct your opinion, but there are many aspects of where we are now that John has certainly had a major influence.
The squeaky wheel gets the oil, but being more constructive about it will go miles.
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@unknownuser said:
The squeaky wheel gets the oil, but being more constructive about it will go miles.
one would hope.. i think there have been some very constructive conversations over the years (involving the devs) with regards to sketchup development.. (personally- material browser, dynamic component improvements, printing, alphabetizing menus, plugin organization, toolbar issues, thumbnails)
i mean, things that will benefit ALL users.. so i'd have these discussions (either here, at the google forums, or via email).. and i mean constructive engagements- not 'give me this!'..
then the next SU version comes out and ... nothing.. zip nada zilch..
ok.. so that's understandable or whatever.. so i think at first..
but, su isn't the only app i use and i do engage in conversations (trying to be clear about reasoning, showing examples, making vids for them etc) with other developers and i'll often (and i mean often) see those changes implemented either immediately through a beta release or in the next official release..we are in fact the users.. and we have many many stupid ideas for the apps.. but sometimes, we have good ideas and can get these ideas through to the devs in a reasonable and constructive manner.. and the devs will understand the need and agree it should be implemented.. and they actually do it..
this process simply does not exist with sketchup.. i'm sorry but it doesn't.. and to make matters worse, they try to make it seems like it does via Q&As or polls for most desired features etc.. but none of that stuff ever happens (and if it does.. meaning a user makes a direct request which is then implemented.. it is very very rare)
[edit] and in jason's case ..(i'm not defending his outbursts or whatever.. just understanding his position is all).. it's not like he just comes in here guns ablazing.. he started off calmly and constructive enough a few years ago.. and it's getting him nowhere.. i've been there.. i get it.
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Jeff hit the nail on the head -- I participated fully in good faith.
Bacus presided over the most dismal development period of any (ostensibly worked on) software I have seen -- such poor performance would be grounds for termination at any job.
As for what I want, I put in my votes like everybody else -- sure I'd be slightly disgruntled if my wants are ignored while everyone else gets what they want... but the truth is hardly anybody got anything they wanted.
I'm not anti-SketchUp at all. Wait until 2013 (ugh) is released and see what kind a zoo this place turns into... the chaos upon release of SketchUp 8 was just a small sample of what you can expect with the next (and I believe last) wave of disappointing results.
The mere fact that Sketchup 9, which should have been ready for release, was scrapped should tell you that they had nothing worthwhile to release even 2 years after the SketchUp 8 fiasco. After 4 years of essentially doing nothing you really believe they are competent to get the job done at this time? And based on what, the last worthwhile update was SketchUp 7 -- so you have to go back many years to see anything good Bacus has done.
All I've seen are excuses and rationalizations as to why things aren't getting done -- I want results... plain and simple.
Best,
Jason.
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