Sketchup needs to be BIM
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[quote="brewsky"]I am a "architectural engineer"(i hope it's correctly translated
, and in my spare time I try to make a BIM plugin for sketchup, but it would be great if the SketchUp team would make a real SketchUp BIM-addon(without losing sketchup's coolness and simplicity 
)As a user of both Revit and Sketchup, I agree with Brewsky's idea of a BIM plugin that doesn't sacrafice Sketchup's coolness and simplicity. I think the idea of plug and play is a good one. To me trying to transform Sketchup into a Revit knock off, would be a huge mistake, because it would mean losing the things that make Sketchup great. Currently, Revit and Sketchup are two unique tools in my tool box that are used for different purposes. Sketchup is used for design and visulization, and Revit is used for documentaion, coordination, analysis, and basically taking a project from design development through CD's and final construction. To me Sketchup's current strengths lend themselves to the beginning phases of a project, and Revit to the later phases. Given the choice between the two I would choose Sketchup hands down when it comes to modeling and visualization. It is more inuititive, faster, and easier to learn and use. If I am on a Revit project and have to produce renderings, or model design options, I often export my Revit model and bring it into Sketchup. I can model 3 design options for a project, to a nice rendered quality, much quicker in Sketchup than I can in Revit. But it is hard to make those modeling efforts pay off after one of the design options is chosen and we move to construction documents. As others have said we need to find ways to make the Sketchup model more beneficial down the pipeline in the design process.
There is so much discussion and much confusion on what BIM is. I have had wade through a lot of it in order to help our partners, colleagues, and clients understand. There is BIM the tool and there is BIM the process. The process of BIM, which has been described as the 'Integrated Design Process', is as much more about a different way of thinking and doing architectural design than it is about software. While the goal of a more seamless process, and more integrated building are the goal, both the tool and the process have been very hard to implement. Revit as a tool is not intuitive, there are many menus and schedules to drill through. It requires heavy front end loading. It is very data driven. It is challenging for visual thinking, intuitive designers to adopt to this kind of tool. I have modeled projects, using with SketchUp alone, that have been very integrated in terms of the design process and how Sketchup was used on the project. We used the model for design purposes, we did take offs, we did analysis, we coordinated building systems to some degree, we even exported views of the model into AutoCAD line work for CD's, and we used the model to help the contractor understand and building during construction. BIM does not equal Revit. My hope is the Sketchup / Trimble team come up with something very different than Revit, that builds on Sketchup's strengths, and that approaches the process of BIM much more intuitive, way. A good first step would be to make the going from Sketchup to Revit and vice versa much more seemless. That would allow Sketchup models developed in early design to have more of a payoff through out the process.
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@jbacus said:
This is an interesting topic for me, and it speaks to a number of other discussions I have had around the internet lately. If SketchUp were to be "BIM", what entities, tools or other features would have want it to have?
sawhack: It sounds like you're thinking of a set of new parametric entities (wall, floor, roof, window, door, ..?) with new tools to make them? Is there more to BIM than this?
john
.Glad to see this an ongoing topic even if under new threads... well done sawhack for starting it off!
@ John B - I think parametric tools would be a major leap forward into the architectural field. What Aaron and his team at BuildEdge are doing with their plugin is very impressive but for SketchUp Pro for Architect [for want of a title] I see a set of tools as such:
Wall tool
Dialogue box info:-
inputs for wall thickness / height
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Wall position in relation to input. [left, right, centre or custom offset]
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Wall junction options - mitre, butt joint [this allows for individual wall segments to be edited if needed]
When drawn, each wall segment would be a group therefore allowing individual editing of wall height to u/s of roof, etc or raking the wall top to meet roof planes...
Wall Edits
- a offshoot of solid tools whereby the user can trim this to that or extend this to that.... as Aidan explains it!
Opening tool - Doors / windows
Dialogue box info:-
Window type [I envisage each user creating his / her own custom component which forms the window configuration. Data below is used to scale it to the desired size]
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inputs for width / height
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Wall position in relation to input. [left top corner, right bottom, etc]
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Wall thickness the opening is being placed in [required to cut a hole in the wall [solid] as does the W x H data...]
Opening Edits
- would be nice to be able to click opening edits then select the opening and the dialogue box appear from which the user had input the data. From here we can change what we want even change the type of window configuration and save out...
Same for columns, roofs, stairs, yes landscape tools also! Cut N fill tools as an extension to the stamp tool for example....
Layers
Layers are the other thing that need to be re-worked in order for SketchUp to be more BIM like. Combining Outliner and the Layer manager to be able to nest layers would be a great start!As for a 2D UI, I'm not so concerned. SketchUp is what it is because of its unique workspace. You can still work in 3D aerial and model if you want 2D....
What I do think should be enhanced along with these ideas is the ability for Layout to find boundary searches of geometry for hatching, filling, etc. Many more things to add for Layout ideas but need to find the time to write them!!
I'll be back to this thread tonight or over the weekend hopefully to add more.... such an exciting topic!!!!!
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The last few posts are extremely interesting, with great ideas.
But I can't help but pose the question... Do you think it is feasible to be only partially BIM integrated? A kind of BIM lite? -
@dale said:
Do you think it is feasible to be only partially BIM integrated? A kind of BIM lite?
Every bit of useful / meaningfull data that can be attributed to a building model (in any part of the building process) makes your BIM better, don't you think?
Making an energy calculation won't use all your BIM-data either, it's just part of the process...I wouldn't speak of BIM-lite, but I think SketchUp can be a very useful part in a larger OPEN-BIM process.
Just create the basic building model using sketchup(new building parts), upload it to a bim-server and expand on it using all other kinds of software(construction(tekla?), MEP software).
I really like the approach of http://bimserver.org/ I'm trying to figure how to make a connection with that at the moment...
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I've used ACAD for years. I was trained on version 2.3 and used it until 2010 (yikes that's 24 years if you do the math), when I started my switch to all SU. Depending on how you organize your modeling in SU, there are many aspects of SU that inherently create a BIM model. The components and how they are tracked are wonderful in maintaining instance count as well as descriptive information. The fact that SU works off planar geometry is also a powerful tool for quantity take offs, by area or material. If SU could then quantify this information into simple schedules, that would really make a giant step for the BIM community.
That said, the last thing I want to see is SU turn anything close to the beast that is Revit. I review lots of other Architect's work here as I serve on a design review board. I can't tell you how many times I see inaccuracies in the use of their BIM software. The one complaint I here is the learning curve and lack of intuitive control is not what they had expected. These two elements alone are probably the greatest attributes of SU.
I want to see something different and unique. The technology is there and it is amazing what is being developed by several companies based around SU. BIM has such a broad meaning and it certainly shouldn't be confined to what Revit produces.
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@unknownuser said:
Depending on how you organize your modeling in SU, there are many aspects of SU that inherently create a BIM model. The components and how they are tracked are wonderful in maintaining instance count as well as descriptive information. The fact that SU works off planar geometry is also a powerful tool for quantity take offs, by area or material.
I like what you say here.
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definitely not off topic but I'll label it as such anyway..
[off:21a0jjy1]
@brewsky said:@unknownuser said:
The fact that SU works off planar geometry is also a powerful tool for quantity take offs, by area or material.
I like what you say here.
<<well, aside from the fact that a 12' rad sphere in sketchup reports about 8 cu/yd less concrete than what's really needed.. (or around 25 sqft less surface area) >>
just a friendly reminder to be careful when using volume and area reports in sketchup on non-box shapes[/off:21a0jjy1]
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@unknownuser said:
definitely not off topic but I'll label it as such anyway..
[off:2bp7mwqv]
@brewsky said:@unknownuser said:
The fact that SU works off planar geometry is also a powerful tool for quantity take offs, by area or material.
I like what you say here.
<<well, aside from the fact that a 12' rad sphere in sketchup reports about 8 cu/yd less concrete than what's really needed.. (or around 25 sqft less surface area) >>
just a friendly reminder to be careful when using volume and area reports in sketchup on non-box shapes[/off:2bp7mwqv]
I hear you Jeff. Thankfully I'm not designing any concrete spheres! I guess if I were, they would be more cost issues in the forms than the $1400 difference in concrete.
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@dale said:
The last few posts are extremely interesting, with great ideas.
But I can't help but pose the question... Do you think it is feasible to be only partially BIM integrated? A kind of BIM lite?Baby steps at first, Dale.....
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BIM is an undefined acronym. Its boundaries are so ill defined I'm surprised people are still trying to put it in a box. It is an impossible concept for all but the most meticulous and open funded projects. The reality is we (of an architectural persuasion) are just seeking tools to make the construction process easier. The prospect of being able to create data and pass it around to other software users and expect them to be able to interrogate the data in a meaningful way other than for basic shapes is not going to happen due to basic commercial posturing. If Trimble want to take SU down the BIM route it should recognise these challanges and offer, (as some have mentioned above) the ability to make realistic interrogations that can be output in a useful way. That shouldn't be a major challenge as the basic scheduling tool is there in the "Report Generator". What needs to be improved is the accessibility and accuracy of that data to give 2D/3D Perimeter / Area / volumes and improvements to the list presentation. I am far from convinced that there is anything to be gained from adding data tags beyond the already present component decription as in the majority of cases it will be a complete waste of time for real world construction projects.
IMHO.
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Stay tuned I have an answer to all of your questions and more.
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You're a tease!!!!!!
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I work with a local contractor that has a robotic plasma cutter. We designed several specific wood/steel connections solely in SU. I then exported .dxf files from SU for input in their plasma cutter software. It was remarkable how seamless the process was, and the results were nearly immediate - 3 days. I'll try to find some pics of the process, but it clearly represents the BIM capabilities already available in SU.
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The BIM thing has been intriguing me lately. One of the other (!) software companies has been pushing their software to create BIM models, but having watched their videos, I felt that SU could do most of what was required,i.e. 1) a 3d model 2) able to render from the model 3) using 3d components 4) extracting component information for estimating. It was only the last item that I found a bit flaky. (I know that there are timelines and facilities management stages, but that isn't necessary for my domestic work)
For small, domestic projects a full-on BIM (using sophisticated layering conventions etc) seems way over the top, but it did occur to me that to assist the builder in pricing for the work, that I could lend a hand and extract areas and volumes of materials, lengths of beams etc, that a builder, without the benefit of the 3d model would otherwise have to prepare manually. The only danger is, me making an error!, so it does put the onus on me to double check the output. (most small builders don't have CAD software anyway, let alone a computer)
I've just given this a try out on my last project, preparing "QUANTITIES of Main Elements
(from model)" and with a hefty health warning about the data being to assist the builder etc. I will wait for feedback from the builder quoting for the work. -
That sounds neat, Nick... would love to see the process pics...!
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@utiler said:
That sounds neat, Nick... would love to see the process pics...!
The piece is a center steel knife plate with 8 plates. It is 54" in diameter. In the first video, that google released on my process, there is a small segment showing the model of this element.
No shop drawings were prepared other than the SU model.
Here it is freshly installed.
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@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
Here it is freshly installed.
are those 6x6s ?!
They are 12x12's - 200 psf snow load. The structure is 18 feet in diameter - center point to center of segment of course
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The element above is the top of a 3 story stair tower. Here it is finished (unfortunately the photographer couldn't easily capture the element, but it gives you a better idea of scale:
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nice man
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