Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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just a warning.. if i keep going on about this stuff
i'm pretty sure it's gonna get worse before it gets better
[at which point, i'm going to say something so simple and revolutionary that everyone will will suddenly be amazed at their newfound abilities to see/comprehend the multiverse— too bad you'll all be in the wrong dimension when i say it and probably won't hear me
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God spoke to us especially through Bible and through His Son!
The prophets spoke to us in different ways, but, through the Son, God spoke to us in a unique way that no one has been able.
(John 7:46, "officers said," Never man spake like this man.“)
Many guys believe that God has revealed himself through various prophets as revealed to us through His Son...!
The Bible states unequivocally that revelation through Jesus Christ is UNIQUE. All prophets are set in one side, and Son, apart... Every prophet, of any ‘color’..., who claims to have greater or equal revelation of Jesus Christ is a liar!Revelation through prophets was FRAGMENTARY, but through Son was TOTALLY.
Revelation through prophets was PROGRESIVE, successive, but through Son was FINAL.
Revelation through prophets was INSUFFICIENT because it was fragmented, but through Son was SUFFICIENT because it was full (there is nothing to add ...).
Revelation through prophets was LIMITED, but through Son, God was revealed to us as He is.The disciples asked: "Lord, show us the Father and it is enough tu us," to which Jesus answered them: "... He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father ..." (John 14:9)
Revelation through prophets prepared mankind for the final revelation, when God revealed through the Son.
Therefore, the Son is the supreme revelation of God in His dialogue with us.
God gave us, through His written Word (the Bible), and through His incarnate Word (Jesus Christ, the Lord) all necessary information concerning Creation! -
I suppose we may never know who / what / ???? created the universe but its good to see all the opinions. In a way I envy those with such a solid faith, it makes things so much easier .... I think!
Maybe the universe created itself and continues to do so time and time again! If this is the case then has anyone thought that we created the universe? After all we are all part of it! I think I could even throw a twist into the debate using a Christian believe! 'God Created Man in His Own Image' Genesis 1:26
And no, I haven't started early Christmas celebrations
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Re.“After all we are all part of universe”...: We were created ‘parts’ - we were not as a creative part...
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Funny Jeff. An odd thing though, I walked through the living room a few min. ago and had this feeling that the house was already spotless, but that was only a feeling mind you. And for whatever reason my eye hurts now.
Sincerely - yalderfooB
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Re: “God Created Man in His Own Image” (Mike L.)
Man is a ‘threefold being’, as God is Trinity. Man has three parts: body, soul and spirit.
There is a likeness of God in man, which is NATURAL - that is the HUMAN PERSONALITY. This personality is defined on two levels:
A. the human capacity to know themselves, know the world and to know God. Man has the capacity to understand and to love God ...
B. human capacity to define themselves in terms of moral. Man can decide what will be the focus of: his own person, God, or the outside ‘world’...MORAL likeness to God refers to HOLINESS. Man was not created neutral. God made man righteous and glory...
The moral likeness lost through sin, but remained partly natural resemblance afterwards. -
"what if i tell you"
that my pc just built up itself by it's own will. after a big crash.
so, now i can enjoy the warmth of this forum's rooms, and the cool people of this forum again.
it's not that hard or a big deal for a so "far behind" simple pc to build itself over and again. compared to the whole complex system of universe, i guess
intermezzo
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Irwanwr, sometime..., somewhere..., they say that there was an explosion of stupidity...
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that's why it doesn't make sense at all for me, if anyone says that "the universe" made itself by it's own will and effort. no matter how long the process it will take.
i am willing to give anyone a chance to show me, if those pc components (motherboard, processor, ram, etc.) are able to build itself by it's own. say, infinite time would be enough?
if there is anyone who can prove that, i might consider to reevaluate my opinion.
until then, i'll stick to my current conclusion. that there is god. and he creates anything that he wants to.have a good time in your holidays people.
cheers. -
@irwanwr said:
:lol: that's why it doesn't make sense at all for me, if anyone says that "the universe" made itself by it's own will and effort. no matter how long the process it will take.
i am willing to give anyone a chance to show me, if those pc components (motherboard, processor, ram, etc.) are able to build itself by it's own. say, infinite time would be enough?
if there is anyone who can prove that, i might consider to reevaluate my opinion.
until then, i'll stick to my current conclusion. that there is god. and he creates anything that he wants to.have a good time in your holidays people.
cheers.that's a pretty weak argument.. it's like saying everything in the universe was created at one moment, by god, then hasn't changed since..
but surely you believe that the universe is still changing.. that parts of it are being influenced by certain other elements within the universe.. even here on earth, the landscape is constantly changing... some rivers are still getting deeper as they're being carved out of the ground by flowing water..the flowing water is creating a canyon..
wind is making mountains smaller
bees are creating honeycombs
trees are making oxygen
man is making microchips..[edit- oh.. and we can also make honeycombs, oxygen, canyons, and shrink mountains.. and a bunch of other crap too]
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@unknownuser said:
Funny Jeff. An odd thing though, I walked through the living room a few min. ago and had this feeling that the house was already spotless, but that was only a feeling mind you. And for whatever reason my eye hurts now.
Sincerely - yalderfooB
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Jeff, i did mention in my previous post. not the one above. that even god said (as i believe) it takes phases. thus also time.
if there is a hocus pocus pop out, i believe everything might collide to each other.
and about those on going phenomenons, none of them runs without certain laws. i.e. physics for instance. in certain orders.
i could imagine how would we be in a van full of people running wildly in 500 km/h, on a long winding road. no need for very sharp curves to give the idea.how do those entity "know" what they are doing? do they? so Descartes "cogito ergo sum" may imply to them also? and then they all get on an "agreement" on some coherent and inherent such of laws? on any level from core atomic to bigger macro systemic?
here's the simple non sense for me; a few people may not come to an agreement for simple things. with all their intelligence, free will, etc. what if those "things" have the same free will with their own minds? only one thing left for sure. that there is "something" managing all to make them works integrally and comprehensively perfect. without unnecessary collision.
pardon my english.
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@irwanwr said:
and about those on going phenomenons, none of them runs without certain laws. i.e. physics for instance. in certain orders.
what about the bees or trees? they're living creatures.. maybe not as intelligent or equipped as us so their 'making skills' are very limited but they're still making things in the same manner as we do.. the bees collect their raw materials for their hive in the same fashion as us collecting wood for our houses.. the various materials are brought together on the job site then assembled to create something that wasn't there before.. if there were no bees then there would be no bee hives either.. regardless of how long you want to wait for one to magically appear..
computers are made in the same way... we have thousands of years worth of building experience plus an intelligence/drive/curiosity that the bees are lacking so the complexity of what we can create/build is expanding every day and will continue to do so..
but come on.. this is obvious
@unknownuser said:
how do those entity "know" what they are doing? do they?
hmm.. maybe the bees don't know what they're doing and they are just god's robots.. i guess that would make us god's robots too..
@unknownuser said:
that there is "something" managing all to make them works integrally and comprehensively perfect. without unnecessary collision.
yeah, you're probably right.. there is something managing all this.. some sort of rules or glue or energy etc holding this all together.. in our current developmental state as humans, i think the deity that makes the most sense is mother nature.. or go way back in human history and you'll have the tao which is basically what all other religions are built upon.. tao being the essence of life.. religion being the words used to describe the tao.. and the more words used and myths told about the tao, the further from the truth you get because the true tao can't be explained in words or described in ways current religion is described.. a n y w a y s.......
one of the problems with religion, as i see it, is that it's an attempt to describe what isn't know to us.. for whatever reason, we humans have an urge to describe everything or make sense of our surroundings.. when we can't come to any decent explanation, we just make something up (god).. and i think the reason why everyone locks onto god so hard is that it explains what happens after death.. death being the single greatest fear humans experience.. without god in many people's lives, they'd be straight up basket case as they'd be so consumed with this fear of death.. god gives them their little security blanket..
but just look at our history.. there used to be a god for all sorts of stuff that was unexplainable at the time..
thunder? oh, that's a god
rain? a god
fire? yep.. a god too
plus all sorts of other gods to explain our emotions and various other elements of nature..and these people really did believe these gods were real in the same way people in this thread believe christianity's god is real.. probably even more so
but the gods begin to disappear as we began to find much more likely explanations for these things.. now, we're left with one last god whose soul [sic] purpose is to explain why we were born and what happens when we die... since no one has ever been alive before they were born or after they died, we have no way of really knowing or experiencing that so we assign a god to explain the unknown...
eventually however, we probably will know that stuff (especially if some of these multiverse/more dimension type theories become more understandable/recognizable).. and god as you know him(?) will be a thing of the past.. something to make a movie out of like zeus or thor etc..in the meantime, it doesn't matter what you believe.. i don't care that you worship a god.. it doesn't matter.. we'll (humans) still get past it eventually.. and you'll sit on your death bed feeling all comfy (but in reality, you're still going to be scared shitless as the doubt creeps in), then you'll die, then — well, i don't know what happens then.. no one does and believe it or not, it's ok for you to admit that.
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What works survives and what doesn't mutates or dies. There is nothing as stupid as the theory of "intelligent design".
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'Stuff' as such wasn't created in the Big Bang. The Laws of Physics were created at the Big Bang; and their creation only took fractions of a nanosecond. Just look at the trouble they're having isolating the Higgs boson...even when it's confirmed it won't be an actual 'picture' of it, just the tracks of some already-decayed fragments of it speeding away from the point of collision. It's so unstable it lasts virtually no time at all.
However, it is responsible for imparting mass to all other particles...and with mass you get gravity and Newton's Laws of Motion. All the complex laws of thermodynamics come down to very simple roots...just like you can get an infinitely complex Mandelbrot fractal image starting with an extremely simple mathematical function. All the laws of physics come down to 3 basic forces...the nuclear force, gravity and electromagnetism.
Once you've got that particular 'trinity' and a whole lot of energy for them to play with, then that energy can disperse and cool to a plasma and then to individual particles of matter, utilising those three principles.
The rest is history....and a whole lot of physics and chemistry.A problem we face is the problem of language itself. We have inherited phrases like The Laws of Physics from the Newtonian era when it was taken for granted that there was a God. Even people like Ben Franklin came under fire for performing things like the kite experiment, trying to prove the nature of lightning. There were many people who seriously maintained that he should not be tampering with God's power in that way.
The Laws of Physics were synonymous with The Laws of nature or The Laws of God. The word Law itself (which has its origins in the old Norse word meaning that which is layed down...as in layer) presupposes that there is something or someone doing the lawmaking. In actuality, there are no Laws of Physics the universe simply does what it does. -
there is a saying considering of details and the main ideas.
@unknownuser said:
"... don't let yourself lost in those many small mouse paths. you'll end up losing the main road..."
and yet, some ancient men might even be wiser than those of any nowadays technical and details lovers.
@unknownuser said:
" Yet there is God, though not perhaps the simple and human god conceived by the forgivable anthropomorphism of the adolescent mind..." (Aristotle).
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@unknownuser said:
The Laws of Physics were synonymous with The Laws of nature or The Laws of God. The word Law itself (which has its origins in the old Norse word meaning that which is layed down...as in layer) presupposes that there is something or someone doing the lawmaking.
i may used the "law" or "order" words here, because we're trying to speak the same language. that is english. if i am speaking in my native language, i don't even have to mention "law" or "order". not even once. i think whether the "law" was derived from Norse word or else, doesn't count into my thought. we might have very distinctive differences on terms of meaning, root or definition of words. english doesn't mean "everything" to me. even though i was an anglophile or sort of a little.
in my culture, especially language we probably adapt "wise", "path" or "way". like wise itself. clockwise, certain order of path, etc.
and finally,
since now i am back to my last conclusion (once again). that we're talking everything with different Operating System (that's why i didn't pay much attention to this thread for a while), i'll let you do the discussion the way your Operating System told you to do.have a good time with your beloved ones in your holidays.
cheers,
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@unknownuser said:
... the tao which is basically what all other religions are built upon..
how did you come with that conclusion? all other religions?
about those things. living or not. they do or response to their surrounding. with certain kind of laws or orders. i agree on that since the beginning. until today, i've never heard anything like a bee pursuing a degree in architecture or PhD in physics. even if they've been doing that "hives building" since thousands or millions of years ago, they're going nowhere else with that. so they just got some kind of that "blueprints" implanted in their being. they just do what they've "told" to do.
and the main difference between us human and those other things is most probably our high "free will" and "mental" capabilities combined.
then, yes it seems we've come onto some sort of agreement there.
that there is "something" beyond all of these. you may call it mother nature, father nature, the jedi knight's force, tao, or whatever that is.
since i don't know and don't have any proof of what gender that "thing" would be, i might stick to know "it" by god.@unknownuser said:
Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)
@unknownuser said:
one of the problems with religion, as i see it, is that it's an attempt to describe what isn't know to us..
i don't know about electricity, nuclear things either. let alone cosmology. but that doesn't make me not to believe that electricity or nuclear things do exist.
@unknownuser said:
.. and i think the reason why everyone locks onto god so hard is that it explains what happens after death.. death being the single greatest fear humans experience..
i might have different opinion or feeling towards that matter. since every living thing will eventually die. but falling from a cliff i might fear of. because there should be options before every possibilities to choose.
@unknownuser said:
but just look at our history.. there used to be a god for all sorts of stuff that was unexplainable at the time..
thunder? oh, that's a god
rain? a god
fire? yep.. a god too
plus all sorts of other gods to explain our emotions and various other elements of nature..i have a little thing about that. you might consider it as just fairy tales, myths, etc. or you can give it a little thought.
@unknownuser said:
Thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he might be of those possessing certainty: (75) When the night grew dark upon him he beheld a star. He said: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: I love not things that set. (76) And when he saw the moon uprising, he exclaimed: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: Unless my Lord guide me, I surely shall become one of the folk who are astray. (77) And when he saw the sun uprising, he cried: This is my Lord! This is greater! And when it set he exclaimed: O my people! Lo! I am free from all that ye associate (with Him). (78) Lo! I have turned my face toward Him Who created the heavens and the earth, as one by nature upright, and I am not of the idolaters. (79) His people argued with him. He said: Dispute ye with me concerning Allah when He hath guided me? I fear not at all that which ye set up beside Him unless my Lord willeth aught. My Lord includeth all things in His knowledge. Will ye not then remember? (80) How should I fear that which ye set up beside Him, when ye fear not to set up beside Allah that for which He hath revealed unto you no warrant? Which of the two factions hath more right to safety? (Answer me that) if ye have knowledge. (81)
@unknownuser said:
and you'll sit on your death bed feeling all comfy (but in reality, you're still going to be scared shitless as the doubt creeps in), then you'll die, then — well, i don't know what happens then.. no one does and believe it or not, it's ok for you to admit that.
yes, i know that too. as a matter of fact, i don't think i need more complicated explanation for that. since i have a bunch of notes on that matter. here are a few of them.
@unknownuser said:
Every soul will taste of death. Then unto Us ye will be returned. (57)
@unknownuser said:
Say (unto them): Lo! the death from which ye shrink will surely meet you, and afterward ye will be returned unto the Knower of the Invisible and the Visible, and He will tell you what ye used to do. (8)
@unknownuser said:
Say: Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing, and then ye dwell in comfort but a little while. (16)
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It doesn't matter what language you speak. It doesn't matter whether you use law or way or path or wise; it's the language itself that is at fault...because the only 'language' that the universe understands is that of mathematics.
Any other language is loaded with pre-supposed meanings:-
A law requires a lawgiver
A path or way that is followed requires someone or something to originally create it.
Wisdom requires an intelligence.On the other hand, 2+2 doesn't require anything to equal 4, it just does. It doesn't matter what base you use...binary, decimal, duodecimal etc. 4 might be expressed in a different form, but the concept of 4 remains the same. Similarly, the universe doesn't require anything other than the fact that it is.
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@alan fraser said:
... the universe doesn't require anything other than the fact that it is.
i agree
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