Libya

JuanV.Soler · 1 Apr 2011, 12:31

they do not forget no,
besides :

YouTube - Farrakhan Warns, Advises Obama on Libya
[flash=480,385:21c5jadv]http://www.youtube.com/v/iLrLgOVHT8E?fs=1&hl=es_ES[/flash:21c5jadv]

Thanks srx

JuanV.Soler · 20 Oct 2011, 18:15

While some people are celebrating the death of Gaddafi,
watch this video about the reasons for wanting him dead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-4eGqj_BCE

tfdesign · 20 Oct 2011, 19:43

@solo said:

As a socialist liberal I do not believe we (America) has reason to be in any war/conflict. I'm against our involvement in Libya.

There is a lot of hypocrisy in all of this, Will we defend the people of Yemen, Bahrain, what about Zimbabwe?

I was against Bush for what he did as I am now opposing Obama for the same reasons.

As a Marxist, I agree. However I don't condone the final assassination of Gaddafi either. I think that was wrong. He should have been arrested and then tried by a neutral court. The Americans (and British) were wrong to invade Iraq, but they acted correctly when they found Saddam down a hole and then arrested him. But they should never have handed him over to the resurgence. The Americans were also hypocritical when they found and then assassinated Bin Laden. They should have simply arrested him too.

America still has the death penalty, and were wrong to carry out two state executions recently- even if the accused had committed terrible criminal acts. Arab nations are often seen or described as brutalistic by the west, but the west can be just as brutal, but in a different way (see recent torture footage of Iraqis by both the British and the Americans), and I think as westerners, many of us find that hard to grasp or see.

It will be interesting to see what happens next.

srx · 20 Oct 2011, 20:10

Another democratic murder seen on TV...and all the western politicians (puppets) are celebrating!?...the one with the tail too...
This is sad and troublesome ...I think we all have to worry...and I pray that ordinary people in USA and other countries involved will wake up and say no to this kind of spreading democracy.

srx · 21 Oct 2011, 09:03

Can anyone tell that this is not the truth?

@unknownuser said:

Would the people in NATO countries to see these images, they could despite all the war propaganda understand that war by NATO, with a few as henchmen led, is not to the liberation of the people in Libya, but against the Libyan people and their legitimate government is.

About the reasons for this criminal act:

JuanV.Soler · 21 Oct 2011, 16:08

Did you know about this ? The **Green Book**of Gaddafi
Muammar-Qaddafi-Green-Book-Eng.pdf
We are know claiming
Direct democracy
and he wrote about that : %(#008000)[is the
ideal method, which, if realised in
practice, is indisputable and noncon-
troversial.]

source : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KuO9i_4hPg

what on earth are we doing ????????????????????????

srx · 21 Oct 2011, 21:53

Green book... More than interesting thinking in that it unites socialist ideas with natural laws contained in tradition and religion...not seen before...something I was just thinking about...the only right way to save the human freedom...the human soul...but how in practice to do it, not cleared to me. The goal is satisfaction of everyone's needs...and what about the need for domination? The book is very human, but too simplified in solutions. Thank you very much for this Juan!

Stinkie · 22 Oct 2011, 11:32

I don't particulary mind Ghadaffi is dead (I'd rather seen him sent to The Hague, though), but I'm quite sceptic with regards to Libya's future. I predict a wave of privatization.

dale · 22 Oct 2011, 14:06

Although I question the motives of Libya being singled out as a target for NATO intervention (oil, ya think?) while staying out of many other conflicts as pointed out, I wonder what the consequences would have been if NATO had not intervened?

Stinkie · 22 Oct 2011, 14:56

The insurgency might have failed, I imagine. Many civilians would've died, and many others would've ended up in cells and/or torture chambers.

And the West would've missed a great opportunity to make lots of money.

JuanV.Soler · 22 Oct 2011, 20:38

The Lies behind The Evil Humanitarian War on Libya 'No Evidence', NATO Crimes In Libya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g_IU0d3WVu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_8RSvJdeakg

worth a look

bob-designer · 22 Oct 2011, 22:21

So, Ben Laden was killed without a trial. Can you prove that he was killed or did not have a trial? Are you taking someone word as fact? Ben Laden was behind the killing of 3000 plus people in the World Trade Center. Did Ben Laden have then tried in a neutrial court before giving the order? What about the millions of people killed in Russia; where they given a chance to defend them selfs in court? Who in Russia tried to stop all that killing? It is easy to state what is wrong in the world; but in doing so, be prepared to state how to make things right in the world.

Do not state that you heard this or that you read that in this world; where it is difficult to obtain the truth of the matter. Is Gaddafi really dead?

JuanV.Soler · 23 Oct 2011, 03:48

@bob-designer said:

Do not state that you heard this or that you read that in this world; where it is difficult to obtain the truth of the matter.

Libya was attacked basically because Gaddafi was accused of killing his own people.
What the videos show is that those accusations were spread before they could be verified.
They state too, that Members of the Transitional Government were members of the Human Rights League that provided that information.
Does it sounds**Right** to you ?
And that is been said by Dr.Sliman Bouchuiguir, Libyan League for Human Rights, Switzerland

I agree with you that it is difficult to obtain the truth of the matter.
But I think you must admit this information.

bob-designer · 23 Oct 2011, 08:38

Juan, I rejoice in the fact that we, you in Spain and me in the US can post messages over the internet and that is the truth and the world is smaller. There is one quote that I have heard many time in my lifetime " Believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see". I use that as a guide for my thinking. One person is not right or the other person wrong, their views are different. Also,"Do not try to change or fix something before you know how it works; It may not need fixing" and "Take care of your people and they well take care of you".

I have a degree in reginal and city planning. My planning may be the best for the city, but the plans implementation well be political in nature and I know for a fact, that the result fall short of what they could have been. Such is the result of political involment.

Always look at the Cause (what you plan on doing) and the Effect (the result of your action) before you put a plan into action. Nato put a plan together that was to save Libyan lifes. I belive, that result or effect was far more than what they had visioned. I war, things get out of control, when the first shoot is fired and Nato involment was part of that lack of control. Did they do the right thing or should a few good men stand and do nothing? Put together a plan and then work the plan. I think helping the people was the correct thing; I would of liked to have seen some better control and may be better results.

Is there a way of knowing who or what the Transitional Government or the Human
Right League is about or where they stand? I do not know were to find the facts or the truths of both organizations. I worry for the future of Libya. I would not want tne Muslins to obtain control of Libya. My stand is that Libya is for the Libyans. However, I have few facts or knowledge about the Libyan people. May their new found freedom and happyness live forever.

srx · 23 Oct 2011, 08:57

@unknownuser said:

Nato put a plan together that was to save Libyan lives.

They made a small error: 50.000 dead, 200.000 wounded, 2.000.000 out of the country! Very human act.

@unknownuser said:

It is easy to state what is wrong in the world; but in doing so, be prepared to state how to make things right in the world.

Well, start from yourself, your voice and vote. Don't support wars against sovereign counties in the name of "democracy". It's not legal. Things are simple as that. Or you think it's ok?

@unknownuser said:

Many civilians would've died, and many others would've ended up in cells and/or torture chambers.

I guess you didn't bother watching this, so I'm showing it again. Look at a number of people here. This is the evidence Western media could not create with their propaganda machine, thees are the real people:

Can anyone tell that this is not the truth?

@unknownuser said:

Would the people in NATO countries to see these images, they could despite all the war propaganda understand that war by NATO, with a few as henchmen led, is not to the liberation of the people in Libya, but against the Libyan people and their legitimate government is.

JuanV.Soler · 23 Oct 2011, 09:43

@bob-designer said:

May their new found freedom and happyness live forever.

bob-designer, I rejoice too being able to talk directly.

I am pretty sure that you did not know
that in Libya,
until this past month of March, under Gaddafi´s regime,
%(#004000)[their people had the highest standard of living in Africa,
the electricity and water was free to all people,
the education and health care was also free and high quality,
houses were provided free when marrying,
cars were given for the 30% of their cost,
and loans for everyone were free of interest by LAW.]
Don´t you think the Libyan people already had the basic facts on their society to live happily ?

Now it has been destroyed, what for ? humanitarian reasons ? in the name of Democracy ?

No-one has the absolute reason, that is why respect is the basis of convivence, but NATO and USA believes they have and acts violently and cruel. Those are the facts. They hide the information they want and push the ones they need to conquer their goals.
And one has to surf INTERNET to reach other views.

You say : Did they do the right thing or should a few good men stand and do nothing?
Information is the heart of the matter, is not it ? We only get their view but we all can see their effects.
salud

TIG · 23 Oct 2011, 15:35

It is a self evident truth that if the Libyan's main export were camel-dung then western governments would have had no interest in overthrowing their dictator, no matter how wicked he was [e.g. see Robert Mugabe]. Qaddafi's support for using a gold-standard [Dinar] in place of Dollar-trading for oil across Africa and the Arab world was somewhat ill-conceived, considering what happened to Sadam when he wanted to change from Dollar to Euro-based trading of oil!
Qaddafi clearly did many good things for the Libyans whom he favored, or who offered him their craven support.
The standard of living for most Libyans was pretty good and benefits were shared out from the oil-revenue more than in most nations... BUT, obviously many Libyans felt that it was still, 'Better a free man in hell than a slave in paradise' as they gave their lives to that end...
ALSO - to his demerit...
Have you factored in the Abu Salim massacre in 1996, or the college students he was hanging in the 1980s, or that he had opposition abroad assassinated.
Day to day corruption in Libya was perhaps the worse in the world [now it'll probably get worse].
Libyan unemployment was 20-30%.
Libya was ranked fifth from last amongst all countries for their freedom of the press.
Libyan state controlled media was often used to glorify him and his edicts, without any balanced reporting.
Libyan infra-structure was weak and prone to failures [now it'll probably get worse].
Who organized the Lockerbie bombing or the shooting of protesters and killing of WPC Yvonne Fletcher in London?
He wrecked the Libyan national army by entering into several futile wars to satisfy his personal fantasies.
...
Libya was not 'paradise' before the recent fracas and it won't be afterwards either.
I am not sorry he's gone, but as the song says, 'Revolution never won, it's just another form of gun to do again what they have done...' and of course all war is 'state organized theft' of something - even if it's not taking tangible objects then it's stealing hearts or minds...

Frederik · 23 Oct 2011, 16:24

Great way of putting it, Tig...

JuanV.Soler · 23 Oct 2011, 17:13

Hi**TIG**
So what this justified invasion has achieved ?

It is the procedure of itself what deeply angers me.
The non-reaction from us the people who consider ourselves to be free and living as well in paradise.
Who consider ourselves to be educated and have all these
Human Rights Institutions and so on.

We have been able to make Laws for the Human Rights and we see how, based on those principles, the ones who look for power and money, take advantage of the situation and we applaud.

Just the same with Corporations and the Banking. On behalf of the rights of Constitutional freedom we have allowed them to do whatever they have liked.

I believe that we the people have been kidnapped.

It has to be stopped. Their dirty game and our unconsciousness of this facts have to be ended.

I really hope that the Movement around the World showed with clarity the last 15 October, will get over it.
I can only feel shame now.

cheers

TIG · 23 Oct 2011, 17:32

I agree that the West has little to be proud of in their various forays into other countries' 'internal' affairs. But it was ever thus over the centuries - we learn nothing...
However, consider the alternative... we did nothing in Libya ever - then we'd have Qaddafi [or his family/cronies] still in power, oppressing those many Libyans who disagreed with him: the way to look at it is, "choosing the lesser of two evils".
Our evil is obviously better than his evil - after all we own it !
I agree that the West really needs to take a long look at itself and get its head out of its ass... and start doing what it preaches - like proper democracy for the people, without undue influence of 'big-business', which would be a good start... but that still doesn't excuse any of the other crap that is heaped on people around the world by alternative types of government/dictatorship or religious belief systems... theirs is just as flawed as ours.
You cannot justify what Qaddafi did because he gave away electricity
I am not justifying what the West did either