Questions about rendering applications for SketchUp

chippwalters · 22 Mar 2011, 05:05

Wow. There are a lot of third party rendering solutions for SU and even more opinions on which is better at what for whom.

Much, as has been stated over and over, is subjective.

But, when looking at solutions, there is a lot which is not subjective, and I've a few questions along this line I'd like to ask.

My first question is about speed, and that may be better answered with a series of benchmark scenes. Does such a set of scenes exist? Or, is there any third party render comparison studies out there?

And for me, an even more important question is licensing. For instance, I own a desktop PC, a laptop PC and a laptop Mac. Do I need to purchase a separate version for each machine? I recently contacted Shaderlight, and they told me I would have to purchase three copies, one for each machine. IMO, a most silly proposition and one I would never consider. I'm pretty sure Thea allows more than one computer per license, but can you go cross platform? And what about Twilight or Podium? Anyone know?

Also, invasive copy protection is another issue. Does the computer need to be connected to the Internet every time the product is used? Is there a hardware dongle (and what happens if it gets lost?). Will the software ever "Lock You Out?"

Personally, I'll pay a bit more for a user friendly license and copy protection. Does anyone else consider these things when choosing a rendering package for SU?

Gaieus · 22 Mar 2011, 06:29

Indeed licensing is rarely discussed when comparing products. From your list, I can say that Thea for instance can be installed on 3 different computers of yours (but the studio not used simultaneously - however there are ways to use them as nodes). I guess licensing is also cross-platform.
Twilight (the commercial version) can only be installed on one machine but as it does not have a Mac version yet, cross-platform is not a question. You can use that single license on your single machine to export to the free Kerkythea though and use that on any number of machines (or render in a network and get a fast result). So this limitation is somewhat avoidable.

I have recently signed up for an NFR license with Lumion. That's the first time I met with a software dongle. According to the license, I can use the software on any number of machines - but of course, only one at a time as the dongle has to be connected to the one I am using it on.

This solution is indeed the best as far as flexibility goes but your question is also relevant; what happens if someone loses that dongle? (I should ask this actually from the developers)

chippwalters · 22 Mar 2011, 06:57

@gaieus said:

Twilight (the commercial version) can only be installed on one machine but as it does not have a Mac version yet, cross-platform is not a question. You can use that single license on your single machine to export to the free Kerkythea though and use that on any number of machines (or render in a network and get a fast result). So this limitation is somewhat avoidable.

Ouch, that smarts. No Twilight for me. I would've thought these developers would've have thought through this a bit more-- especially in such a competitive space as SU rendering. For instance, my 3D apps including SketchUp Pro, Thea, Vue 9 Infinite, KeyShot, Modo, Lightwave all allow you to install on more than one computer, as long as it's the ONLY one being used at a time. Funny how 'restrictive' and somewhat 'proud' the SU plugin renderers are-- especially when it's clear they're not even the best ones out there. I wonder what Podium's license is..

Actually, in the 3d industry, it's not at all uncommon for people to have a desktop work machine and a laptop 'on the road' machine. You'd think Twilight and others would allow for that. Especially when it costs them actual sales (I was all set to purchase Shaderlight, but then I didn't after they sent me an email telling me I couldn't use it on two machines).

d12dozr · 22 Mar 2011, 07:34

One Twilight license can be used for one 'work' machine, and one 'home' machine - the reasoning being (I think, but don't quote me) that at such a low price ($99), purchasing two licenses for two work machines is reasonable investment.

chippwalters · 22 Mar 2011, 07:42

@d12dozr said:

One Twilight license can be used for one 'work' machine, and one 'home' machine - the reasoning being (I think, but don't quote me) that at such a low price ($99), purchasing two licenses for two work machines is reasonable investment.

I really don't understand what you are saying. Is it one or two licenses for work/home combo?

EDIT: I think you are saying it's OK to install one license on both a work and home computer. If so, Hooray for Twilight!

d12dozr · 22 Mar 2011, 08:02

@chippwalters said:

EDIT: I think you are saying it's OK to install one license on both a work and home computer. If so, Hooray for Twilight!

Yes, that's what I meant

Gaieus · 22 Mar 2011, 08:07

@chippwalters said:

@d12dozr said:

One Twilight license can be used for one 'work' machine, and one 'home' machine - the reasoning being (I think, but don't quote me) that at such a low price ($99), purchasing two licenses for two work machines is reasonable investment.

...EDIT: I think you are saying it's OK to install one license on both a work and home computer. If so, Hooray for Twilight!

Then please, make sure to first read the licencing policy on this page .

"Each purchase allows for installation on up to 2 machines for personal use or 1 machine for commercial use."

d12dozr · 22 Mar 2011, 08:17

@gaieus said:

Then please, make sure to first read the licencing policy on this page .

"Each purchase allows for installation on up to 2 machines for personal use or 1 machine for commercial use."

Gaieus is right, of course! Its 3AM here...I better get some sleep. Sorry for the confusion, guys.

notareal · 27 Mar 2011, 17:13

Thea license is cross-platform. No need for a different license if you happen to change form a mac to a pc or to a linux. Just download suitable installer and activate. Also like said earlier, Thea studio application may be installed on up to three machines without being used simultaneously. The node application can be installed on one machine and can be used only in conjunction with the master application during network rendering. The Studio and the node (different licenses) can now be installed on a same machine.

jason_maranto · 27 Mar 2011, 22:20

I would also add: It's worth considering (it factored into my decision) is the availability to use the renderer with other software without needing to purchase additional licenses/plugins.

Maxwell (my render software) has no restriction as to which operating system you use (Mac, PC or Linux) the license is floating and travels with you to any machine you are working on in any operating system. Also they have free plugins for almost all the major modelling/animation software packages so you could use a different package(s) and still render in a familiar environment with no penalty whatsoever.

Also worth noting, I would heavily recommend that you consider a package with stand-alone scene editing capabilities to get around some of the high-poly limitations of Sketchup -- which can be a real issue when dealing with things like trees.

There's alot of good stuff to choose from out there -- good luck!

Best,
Jason.

honoluludesktop · 28 Mar 2011, 05:43

IMO, ideally, a license should be portable, and not connected to anything. If I go anywhere, I would like my license to work. However I understand the developers position.

Perhaps there is no easy way to make licenses portable, secure, and not connected to the Internet. I believe that eventually all serious users will purchase as many licenses as they require. I would like to think that only non serious users, and those who want to try it out for some time (the average would have difficulty evaluating a app. in 30 days) use unlicensed software. However, pirated applications have serve to spread a applications use throughout the world. Perhaps superior support to licensed users is the way to go. To that extent, SketchUcation should be subsidized in part by Google.

brodie · 28 Mar 2011, 17:02

Regarding licensing and Maxwell render...

"Standard licenses are floating and work per concurrent user: a license can be installed on as many machines as you like, but it can only be used by one person at the same time"
http://www.maxwellrender.com/mw2_licensing.php

It also doesn't need to be connected to the internet or anything like that to use it.

Maxwell is typically considered slow (it is an unbiased renderer after all), but I think it's a matter of perspective. I think it has a much shorter learning curve than a biased engine like Vray and there are typically less settings to tweak on the front end. That combined with Maxwell's interactive preview evens the playing field quite a bit.

One thing you didn't bring up that I personally think is important since we're talking about a render for SU is whether or not the renderer has a stand-alone "studio" software. Without such a studio, you'll have to make do without high-poly trees, cars, and furniture. Maxwell and a few other renderers do have such studios.

-Brodie

Gaieus · 29 Mar 2011, 08:56

This function of Twilight has saved my @ss couple of times!

Frederik · 29 Mar 2011, 08:58

@unknownuser said:

One thing you didn't bring up that I personally think is important since we're talking about a render for SU is whether or not the renderer has a stand-alone "studio" software. Without such a studio, you'll have to make do without high-poly trees, cars, and furniture. Maxwell and a few other renderers do have such studios.

Good point, Brodie...
Twilight Render have it all...
It works directly in SU, but if you need a studio, you can set everything up in TWR (materials, lights etc.) and export to a XML-file, which you can import in Kerkythea or Thea, where you can work further with advanced lightning, advanced materials, instancing of high-poly trees, grass etc...

Not sure how it works in Maxwell, but if you want to add or change something to your model/scene, you can select only these amendments/changes, export them and in KT as well as in Thea, you can use the merge option to add the amendments/changes to your scene, without the need to re-set and start all over with materials, lights etc...

Frederik · 29 Mar 2011, 09:15

@chippwalters said:

I would've thought these developers would've have thought through this a bit more-- especially in such a competitive space as SU rendering. For instance, my 3D apps including SketchUp Pro, Thea, Vue 9 Infinite, KeyShot, Modo, Lightwave all allow you to install on more than one computer, as long as it's the ONLY one being used at a time. Funny how 'restrictive' and somewhat 'proud' the SU plugin renderers are-- especially when it's clear they're not even the best ones out there.

Ouch... Not even the best ones out there...

Sorry... To me you seem to compare apples with oranges...
The price for TWR is far lower compared to the price of any of the other applications you've mentioned...

Nevertheless... I'll see what I can do to get the developers of TWR to re-view the license policy...
I'm not saying that there will be any changes, cause as others already have pointed out...

@d12dozr said:

...that at such a low price ($99), purchasing two licenses for two work machines is reasonable investment.

Perhaps there's room for license policy improvements with upcomming release of TWR ver. 2...!?

brodie · 29 Mar 2011, 14:31

@frederik said:

Not sure how it works in Maxwell, but if you want to add or change something to your model/scene, you can select only these amendments/changes, export them and in KT as well as in Thea, you can use the merge option to add the amendments/changes to your scene, without the need to re-set and start all over with materials, lights etc...

I'm not sure I fully understand your explanation of the workflow but I'll explain how it works with maxwell. Within the SU plugin you setup all your materials, lighting, etc. Then you can export portions of the scene or the whole scene to an .mxs file (or you can just render directly from SU). The .mxs file is your studio file where you can further tweak materials, settings etc. I'll import my high poly objects into this scene, place them, clone them, etc. If part of my SU model changes you could just delete that part within studio, export that part from SU, and then merge that into the studio file. I personally find it easier to just delete the whole SU portion and merge the whole thing back in. The SU export doesn't take more than a minute or so even on a very large model so it's no big deal.

Regarding the licensing, just in case Twilight wanted to take a look at how Maxwell works. You can open maxwell on as many computers as you want but if you hit render it searches the local network to see if there are any other renders running. The loophole would be if you had two computers that weren't on the same network but I think it's still a good convenient system.

-Brodie

Frederik · 29 Mar 2011, 14:56

@unknownuser said:

I'm not sure I fully understand your explanation of the workflow...

It's similar to your description...

I'm sure you'll see some nice changes to the TWR license policy in the future...

dale · 29 Mar 2011, 15:08

Will there ever be a Mac version of Twilight?

Frederik · 29 Mar 2011, 15:22

@dale said:

Will there ever be a Mac version of Twilight?

I'd say yes...
Can't say when, but I'd assume it to be together with release of ver. 2.0...

Chris have bee struggeling with a Mac version ever since TWR ver. 1.0 was released, but I believe he has a solution for ver. 2.0...

Rich O Brien · 29 Mar 2011, 15:26

So when is v2 out