Interesting, and probably controversial
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good
take those values not only for USA as a nation but to any other nation in the whole world
and That Is ¡
you´ve got it ¡
universal values
cheers -
Thanks for the post. Didn't know that the wording was changed in the 50s. I have some WWII dollar bills somewhere, and will take a look. I'll bet most Americans don't even know the pledge today. Many people don't know the words to "America the beautiful", or the "Star spangled banner". I am under the impression that most schools don't teach these anymore because of potential legal problems.
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The whole Christian nation thing has always driven me nuts. The specific statement about one group being more patriotic than another due to a secondary belief is insulting to many of us.
The current notion of our founding "fathers" being Christians (many weren't, and certainly did not share much with modern BA/C Christians) and therefor intending our nation be such is a bald face lie. They certainly had the opportunity and ability to have clearly and unequivocally stated an intent to make this a Christian nation versus a secular state with no specific affiliation to a single religious body.
At present time 15% of Americans state no belief or affiliation with religion, this number has risen from 8.2% in 1990. I think almost more interesting is the rise in megachurch affiliation which has risen from 5% to nearly 12% over that same period, this move from religions based in a long tradition to what may be more entertainment than religion (clearly my opinion) given what we see of these organizations
I am an atheist but believe in the notion put forth by John Lennon (and inspired by the Reverent Ike, late one night): Whatever gets you through the night 'salright, 'salright, for many their belief is what makes it possible for them to live their lives. I am good with that as long as it doesn't negatively impact the lives of others.
I have always said the pledge in that antiquated pre red scare way. Sadly I must use money, though with the advent of credit cards being accepted nearly everywhere means I rarely carry much of it.
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I have a 1917, and a 1935 US dollar bill, and there is no reference to God. Funny how our money went "off" the silver standard, and "on" that of "faith". But it doesn't matter since the value of silver is also based on "faith".
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Back in the days when it changed nobody said a word, it was the McCarthy era so if you disagreed you'd be labled a communist.
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I wonder, is atheism still perceived as 'anti American' in the US?
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Oh yeah, still very un American, especially down south.
It's even considered evil, which to me is the most rediculous as it has nothing to do with anything supernatural, negative, voodoo, (things that go bump in the night), in fact it's nothing...literally, a belief in no theism (actually it's not a belief even, just a fact)
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This is very hard for me to say because for one I'm from the south and two I'm deeply Christian but I do believe church and everything to do with state should be separate! Our money shouldn't reference anything other than our country and our schools shouldn't teach anything other than to love our country. I wouldn't spend a dollar that said "IN ATHEISM WE TRUST" so I can understand.
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@unknownuser said:
I do believe church and everything to do with state should be separate! Our money shouldn't reference anything other than our country and our schools shouldn't teach anything other than to love our country. I wouldn't spend a dollar that said "IN ATHEISM WE TRUST" so I can understand.
+1
I am a Christian as well but Kurt's last statement makes sense. So I guess I understand where Pete and the rest are coming from then.
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Bit of trivia:
The pledge of allegiance, which originally did not contain the phrase "under GOD," was written by Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister (ironic, since most Baptists today tend to be fundamentalist and would oppose it's removal).
"In God We Trust" has appeared on U.S. coins since 1864; since 1938, it's been mandatory.
President Teddy Roosevelt was against having the phrase on any money, as he thought it was sacriligious.
Stinkie, no I do not think athiest are considered un-American, per se. The majority of Americans understand and agree with our right of freedom of conciousness. However, as noted with our currency and Pledge of Allegiance, public expressions of Christianity have been the norm forever, and even where it is clearly unconstitutional and is contested, fundamentalist Christians have developed an attitude of persecution. Many erroneuously believe our country to be a Christian nation (whatever that means), and they're fine with other Americans practicing their own religions, as long as this stays a Christian nation.
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I'm Agnostic... Atheism seems very much founded on the same faith as all other religions. it requires one to make a definitive decision on something that cannot possibly be known.
I've had the same question for Atheists as well as God Lovers as I call them...
"If there is a God, who created him/her? if there is no God then who or what created the Universe?" when someone can answer either of those questions with any certainty, then I will choose a side.
God lovers answer this question with the standard, you must have faith... intelligent Atheists answer with... some things are not known yet or cannot be known... so basically they lean on Faith also...
just for the even keeled's sake... Atheists treat Christians with the same disdain they treat them with.
I live my life the best way I know how, I try to be good to other people and try to do what I feel in my heart and mind is the right thing given the situation I'm in... if I die and there is a God I feel he/she will recognize this, if I die and there is no God, then I died living life the best way I knew how...
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Buddhism is the only major religion [unless you count Atheism/Agnosticism] that doesn't need/have a 'God', but it still has most of the 'morality' and the 'arcane-ritual' that makes a 'mainstream' religion...
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Yes , keeping those questions alive means that we are able to keep the connection with the unknown.
Much more productive than forgetting them. Avoids closing the door . -
@unknownuser said:
Great one Kris!
Sounds like a good religion...can I join?sounds like you're already a member... and bonus; no one has to try to drown you or cut off your penis to join.
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Agnosticism is illogical because nowhere do we say "I don't know" if something exists for which there is no evidence of its existence. If I insist I have two heads do you say you don't know if it exists? Of course not. You know it does not exist because there is no evidence of its existence.
The same applies to supernatural beings. You either have "faith" or not. "I don't know" is a cop out, a fence sitter.
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@krisidious said:
@unknownuser said:
Great one Kris!
Sounds like a good religion...can I join?sounds like you're already a member... and bonus; no one has to try to drown you or cut off your penis to join.
I hope you are being sarcastic. Protestants don't practice infant baptism. For us, baptism is an optional, outward profession of ones salvation. And circumcision isn't "required".
Unless you're a Jew maybe. Otherwise, it is only practiced for hygenic purposes. -
@krisidious said:
If there is a God, who created him/her?
If you believe in a God that created everything in a matter of 6 days, couldn't you also believe that He had no beginning? He is not constrained to "time" as we think of the word. He created time along with the rest of the universe.
Disclosure: This is my opinion.
I don't want to start an argument here. I was just answering your question.. I doubt this will change your or anyone's opinion but I am simply stating what I believe in answer to your question.
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@unknownuser said:
If you believe in a God that created everything in a matter of 6 days, couldn't you also believe that He had no beginning?
If God created the universe and he existed for all time then the universe was not truly the universe, it was just another scale-able name for a pea in a pod... so if God existed before the universe and created it, then who in turn created God? where did he live before the universe? he hung out in infinite blackness twiddling his thumbs for an infinite amount of time before he came up with all this?
Likewise on the Atheists side I'm supposed to believe that everything just popped into existence from nothing? for no reason? it just started being? think of this place before time, before the universe... nothingness... infinite nothing... no matter, no air, no heat, no cold, no gases, nothing... how can something just pop into existence from nothing? and on the first "go" it went so incredibly well as to create this fantastical thing we call the universe? color me dubious...
An Agnostic does not justify a god or question one of any given faith, first he questions the existence of a God at all... so I don't attempt to justify the Christian "6 days theory" my question is of a God of any kind... but by definition God would have created the Universe. regardless of how he might have done it... the question is a basic one. did the universe come from nothing or something. my skeptical and scientific mind reaches the conclusion that nothing has "no beginning or no end". however my only plausible explanation for the universe's state is that it must have always been, like and elastic rubber band contracting and expanding time after time... creating and recreating itself over and over... but then I'm slapped in the face with physics and the laws of the universe and the battle between anti-matter and matter at the beginning. if not for chaos none of this would exist. therefore how can it repeat over and over and always fall with just a little bit more matter than anti-matter. and there I'm left... with no answer...
Solo,
Sometimes there is not enough information to make an informed decision. how can you believe the universe just popped into existence from absolutely nothing? science does not deny that which it cannot prove does not exist. science by definition is "the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding" if you cannot prove it then, it's not science. it's a theory.
Just to make us all feel better I remind you that every single one of us will have the answer eventually... we will die and then we will know... and if we don't? we'll never worry about it again. and in between... we'll have SketchUp.
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