Sketchup at AA
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Man, this bring back memories...lolol
This is like reading a mechanic's opinion about a mathematic algorithm appliance in quantum physics : useless.
When I was doing my architecture degree in the university, teachers/architects there were really against SK, the only valid software for them, for modeling architecture were AUTOCad and 3DS VIZ, not 3DS Max. Now for me anyone, that back then, considered Autocad a good 3d modeling software doesn't even worth discussing anything about 3D, and join that without not even knowing de differences between VIZ and MAX and you got a pretty good idea how dumb most architects can be in this matter.
And after all that speech, I then saw the models done by these architects here in MAX and Maya, and if most were horrible by my newbie standards back then (7-8 years ago) you can imagine what I think about their models now...
Now, I'm not saying they were bad teachers or architects (some were pretty good in fact), but they were good at architecture not other things, because most architects here are really cocky about their work and being an architect, and think that architecture is the superior art, above any other kind of design form... And God forbid they try to do more, in Photoshop, than add people to their images...
So, after seeing some of these guys 3D models, discussing why the regular printer couldn't print white (good luck replacing that white cartridge...), or being asked to turn around the photo of a shop's wall in Photoshop so that they could see what was behind it, I've pretty much given up about their opinion in CG matters that are not about usability...
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I thought his article was pretty lame - lacked any real information. But I thought he sounded like he was someone who was pro sketchup, but realized he was talking to a group of people who are not:
@unknownuser said:
It’s an ugly format, an ugly medium. Basic, dumb, utterly devoid of expression. But yet, but yet… Isn’t it possible – actually, isn’t it important – to understand this medium? To interrogate what it includes and excludes from its representational repertoire?
and more
@unknownuser said:
And when we start to look closely, isn’t there some kind of strange sublime operating in the SketchUp landscape?
@unknownuser said:
Or perhaps we should use its tropes as a way of exploring unlikely subject matters.
I think he is saying that SketchUp might have some ugly output, but perhaps architects should explore it beyond just its basic visual output; Come to realize that it is a great conceptual modeler that might open new possibilities of form and arrangement. Which is why he posts those incredibly boring images of overlapping buildings - to supposedly push the limits of architectural thinking.
I think he's talking like he's the first person to use this SketchUp product for architecture, conceptual design, or viuisualization. I really did think the article was just dumb. The idea that his images are important experiements that might reach some interesting conclusion is just architectural talk that says "Im going to do crappy experimentation and I think the world should have to follow along and love me beacuse I am asking profoundly shallow questions.." grr, lame.
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The article is about as relevant as Ronald McDonald discussing the pros and cons of Veganism.
Although I suspect the Hamburgler would make more sense.
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Sorry all, was not my intention to start a debate. I ran into his blog quite accidentaly, and I am glad I did. Having said that, Chris' assesment is right on. In his rant Sam fails to follow his own dictum that one has to also study what is being left out, in his case Sam should also study what is being left out from the "representational repertoire" of whatever other software is being pushed in schools these days.
Full disclosure: I am the product of one such schools (a US counterpart anyway). Consequently, I have spent ten years of my career diffusing the koolaid I drank back then.
Also, I am a proud sketchup user.
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Omar, nothing to be sorry about. We love a good old jab at the SU belittlers
I read the item in question. Looks to me that writer did not really have an objective in mind! This became more obvious in his round up.
He mentions the elitists with their down the nose views / comments about SketchUp. I have to laugh every time I read / hear about these types. It dawned on me a long time ago when I first came across these types, that for the most part, they like to maintain the 'mystery' involved in their profession! CAD apps are only tools, a means to an end, they are not the end in itself, the design is!
In contrast I have always found that the true experts / professional designers quite willingly share / teach what they know in the hope that others may bring the subject matter further down the road.
Yep! I think Rich's deciphering of 'AA' may be appropriate and the ideal association for these types
Mike
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I couldn't understand the article at all. Those of you who figured out he was criticizing SU must have gotten more out of it than I did. If he'd have thrown a "Jack bird" in there, and some better images, it'd be a new Durant Hapke thread.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
If he'd have thrown a "Jack bird" in there, and some better images, it'd be a new Durant Hapke thread.-Brodie
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Like this?
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that's heading in the right direction. now add a nonsensical rant with a hint of poetry along with it and I think you'll have it.-Brodie
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Unfortunately for me, I'll never accomplish the same degree of Hapkeism as Durant himself, and the flying jacks are nothing more than a tribute
Is Durant still active on the forums btw?
Never mind, not since July it appears.
// Olle
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The mind boggles.
But there is certain a snobbery within institutions over what is the "industry standard" (whatever that happens to be?), and what is not. I go back to my old university and I still get the same crap, and as soon as the words 'SketchUp' come into my conversation, I can see their eyes glazing over. I think also, a lot of it has to do with the old fart draughtsman(ship) brigade, those who think that the design process is supposed to be hard work 100% of the way, and that modern tools, such as computers are only for loosers, unless of course you have 'the best'. All this crap shows me is how utterly brittle these people's ego's actually are. SketchUp, a tool that does the job well for anyone willing to learn its simple interface, a job that once took years of practice just to get right first time. It still does of course (take practice)- and I think this is where they have missed the point.
FWIW, We even were told at university that we had to start doing proper orthographic drawings again, with a pencil and a ruler. I cheated and used SketchUp with all those fun styles in my finals. None of those buggers noticed the difference!
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I've just left this in the comments page;
@unknownuser said:
tfdesign says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
November 22, 2010 at 5:20 pmHi. Before you start writing software such as SketchUp as simply ‘banal’, perhaps you might like to look at the work of Paul Russam, who recently reproduced an number of Northern Ireland church visualisations, and published the results in SketchUcation, a forum dedicated to SketchUp users worldwide.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Paul.Russam/IOTD20090216?feat=directlink#
As for rendering within SketchUp, because lets face it, the majority of this “banality” you talk about, are based on non-rendered images.
and another;
You can read the rest here;
http://forums.sketchucation.com/viewtopic.php?t=16822
(you may have to register in order to view the rest of the work, if images are uploaded to the server).
regards,
Tom Fenn
Hopefully we may have a few hundred AA-based SU users joining our forum soon?
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Well put tfdesign.
I'm curious to see the answer, but I'll bet he won't admit sk can be pretty good...@tfdesign said:
FWIW, We even were told at university that we had to start doing proper orthographic drawings again, with a pencil and a ruler. I cheated and used SketchUp with all those fun styles in my finals. None of those buggers noticed the difference!
HaHaHa. I did almost the same thing. To this day there's still people that thing some of my "CAD" drawings, some "render" images and 3D models were done in autocad and max.
. Has i said in my previous post, it doesn't really worth the trouble discussing with this kind of people...It's so much easier (and pain free) to lie and leave them in the ignorance...lol -
We shall see.
I think he'll be hard pushed to find any fault in Paul's drawings.
I wonder what else we can bring up? There was those brilliant set of office renders recently, where no one could tell the difference between SketchUp and their Canon's an Nikons. Anyone have the link?
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found it.
http://forums.sketchucation.com/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=31094&p=273507&hilit=Canon#p273507
anyone else want to have another go?
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I recall a time when Acad was the little guy on the block, poo, poo'd by all the big boys, and organizations like AA. Well most of those big boys are gone now, and Acad (IMO, sadly so) has the market sewed up.
If SU ever gets LayOut to function as a complete SU integrated drafting production drawing tool (with ruby Api, and a full function dxf translator), watch out Acad.
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Couldn't resist leaving a comment on this one.
john
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@jbacus:
I am not sure if your quote from van Gogh is your comment or your signature line? -
@mitcorb said:
@jbacus:
I am not sure if your quote from van Gogh is your comment or your signature line?That's my sig- looks like my post is waiting for moderation, too. Here's what I said:
@jbacus said:
Hi Sam,
Glad to see you’re using SketchUp and 3D Warehouse at the AA, and I think you’ll find some interesting and surprising results if you keep at it. Never mind the tutting… they wouldn’t be doing that if you weren’t onto something interesting.
We designed SketchUp to democratize the world of 3D modeling and to make it accessible to the broadest possible range of “designers.” It is by definition an anti-elitist design tool. It is cheap (even free) where other tools are abusively expensive. It is quick to learn where other tools require enormous commitments of time. It naturally produces unpolished representations that invite discussion among stakeholders on a team rather than slick renderings that hold clients at arm’s length. It invites “expertise” no more or less than any other tool, but doesn’t require it. SketchUp is designed to be as powerful as a pencil and a roll of tracing paper. And as weak.
I think the models you see in 3D Warehouse are evidence that our attempt at democratization is working. An astonishingly broad range of work is visible there- from the loftiest of mathematical theories to the humblest of amateur skateparks. SketchUp is used regularly by over a million unique users a week now. Most of whom, as is true of the general population of people in the world, aren’t architectural theoreticians.
I do think you’re wrong if you assume that the populist positioning for our product comes from a position of naiveté, tempting though that may be. Many of us on actually came from very theoretical backgrounds in architecture. I was a student of John Hejduk’s at Cooper Union (the AA across the pond) in the early ’90s and I well understand the issues you are raising. Given the choice, we just chose a populist path for our product over something more exotic.
I hope your research goes well. Or at least that it leads you in an interesting direction. I welcome further discussion on this subject if that’s useful to you– my email address is appended below. And I’ll keep an eye on your blog, too.
john
.BTW, the “…basic, dumb, utterly devoid of expression” rendering style is just a default. And, frankly, you could have chosen a different one when you started SketchUp for the first time. You really should look into customizing your template before you read too much into the “SketchUp sublime.”
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I rate your response eloquent and enlightening, sir. Even though many have surmised what you have said here about Sketchup, and even though somewhere it has been published before, your stating it leaves no doubt. And I thank you for this.
I do note that frustrated users have often given the program a verbal drubbing before. And this particular individual's comments on his blog? have moved you to respond.
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