Trying to define SketchUp Limitations

sketchup guide jody · 1 Jun 2010, 16:22

My initial intent was to build a list of hard numbers, engineers being engineers they balk at there being a limit. There definitely isn't anything encoded as a maximum (other than the insert material already mentioned) and I want to have a soft list that can educate new users (there seem to be more of them every day.)

Ultimately though, after I'd spent some time internally getting opinions, I'm hoping by having something conclusive that we can better focus on what "make SketchUp faster" means and have a better list of things to fix. At the end of the day I'll be happy if I have a list that any SketchUp user can look at and say "try to stay in these lines and you'll be happy." Of course these are moving numbers based on the computer power at hand, but if we can find a number for bleeding edge, average, and old that'll be great.

My initial request is more or less to find a breaking point, but if in getting that number I also find a "SketchUp is starting to suck" point then it'll be good to have. Chances are that the "suck" point for a bleeding edge computer is probably a break point for an old computer.

(Was that clear enough, I'm proving quite capable at rambling without making a point specific to this topic.)

mitcorb · 1 Jun 2010, 17:21

Jody:
Thank you for bringing this topic up. I like to stay informed, and if I have any observations worth sharing, I hope to provide them.
mitcorb

Aerilius · 1 Jun 2010, 17:25

Once I made a test file for components and complexity and uploaded it to 3dwh. I didn't make yet it publicly viewable because it is dangerously complex (10^9). If you are interested, I can add you as viewer.

sketchup guide jody · 1 Jun 2010, 19:38

I think I'm going to do all of my analysis and comparisons off of what we recommend and what we list as minimum in the Help Center here: http://sketchup.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=36208

I figure if it breaks the top end then it will break the bottom and if it runs poorly on top then it will run worse than poorly, or break the minimum. ie. I'll look into testing most hypothesis against our proposed idea.

I'll post my results as they become meaningful in here and/or the other forum (linked up top.)

Gaieus · 2 Jun 2010, 10:30

Hi Jody,

As I have already put my 2 cents down in the Help Forum topic, I am not repeating myself here but just to let you know, I will make this topic a global announcement for a couple of days so that no-one "can" miss it.

BTW as a GSU Team usergroup member, you can also do this any time here. Just look below the text area you are posting.

pyroluna · 2 Jun 2010, 18:16

Hi Jody, I have some issues for big models. And what I mean by big in this case is units. (polycount: 86k, 205k edges - that's not that many, is it?)
I had this model of a city planning project that was something like 20km², and I wanted to make a walk-through movie. Complete disaster, because of two things:

the camera near clipping plane was way too far away from the camera
the shadows were terribly mixed up every 2 or 3 frames or so, resulting in a flickering effect

Now the first point I can understand, but I would appreciate it if it were possible to change this setting for advanced users, instead of automatically having it decided for me. The second point I do not understand.

thomthom · 2 Jun 2010, 18:33

@unknownuser said:

the camera near clipping plane was way too far away from the camera

SU doesn't deal with large (or too small) lengths. At some point you end up with the clipping. The camera settings does affect when you encounter it, parallel view will encounter this faster than perspective.

@unknownuser said:

the shadows were terribly mixed up every 2 or 3 frames or so, resulting in a flickering effect

The dreaded shadow bug, apparently it was fixed in some older SU version, but due to licensing issues it had to be removed. It occurs when the camera's eye is within the shadows.

tomot · 3 Jun 2010, 23:08

The attached picture contains 118,468 vertices, 236,928 faces
Its rendered using Vray for SketchUp, which I'm the currently beta testing.

in .off format this objects size = 6,128 kb
in .obj format this objects size = 4,297 kb
in .dxf format this objects size = 43,433 kb

when the .dxf file is imported into SketchUp the saved the SketchUp file size = 40,186 kb

For all practically purposes its impossible to do anything with this file in SketchUp.

Rotating 90 degrees, Grouping, or Ungouping this object can can many hours. I have never waited long enough to see this happen. I usually use another program such a Rhino that can perform rescaling, rotating, in almost real time, then import it back into SketchUp.

A few members of the Ruby forum have also made valiant efforts to write an .OBJ Import function.
It would be really great to improve the Import .OBJ file function of SketchUp, since it already contains an Export .OBJ function.

And I almost always cry when I see only 1 of my 4 cores working, when I'm using SketchUP.

http://forums.sketchucation.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27812

Frederik · 4 Jun 2010, 06:07

Tomot... Have you tried orbiting the model using "Wireframe" as facestyle...??
It's my experience that SU is able to handle quite high poly models, if you use the Wireframe facestyle...

thomthom · 4 Jun 2010, 06:16

Ah yea - tomot mentioned one of Sketchup most troublesome limitations: exploding/grouping large amounts of geometry. It doesn't even have to that much geometry before it stops, some tens of thousands.

tallbridgeguy · 4 Jun 2010, 20:31

Would it be possible to post some guidelines for this study? (yes I am an engineer and we need guidelines)

At work we import a terrain model from microstation (CADD) and SK will slow down to a crawl if the file has too many faces. We have to move completely in wireframe mode to do anything.

So by guidelines I mean,

How do I compare my slowness to someone else's slowness? Based on faces, edges, file size, etc?
I also found my AMD quad (4G ram) and NVIDIA geoforce 9400 GT card doesn't work as well as my intel quad at work. So is it a hardware thing?
Could someone post 5 different size files and then we could see which one slows down our machine?

I love sketchup but I am getting annoyed at the file size issues. I would really love to model a square mile of terrain.

Thanks for posting this and I will help as much I can!

TBG

JuanV.Soler · 10 Jun 2010, 11:31

For me this is the limit of LAYOUT,
the use of images should not speed down the software so much, should it ?
images are only about 45kb each
there must be about 140 of them in the file, is it too much ?
I attach the file
salud ¡

the mystery is that the layout file is only 33,5 kb

fundación civil.layout

sketchup guide jody · 10 Jun 2010, 18:10

Thanks for the responses folks, there is some great info so far. Same with the questions, I'm also trying to hone in on what i'm asking for as well. At the end of the day I want to have a set of boundaries for new users to help get them rolling, ideally it will help make better best practices as well. If I get my drothers then we might also someday see a dialog in SketchUp when you start to "over do it" with your imports or exports. I think the new SketchUppers would benefit by the dialog that says "You're about to import a 45Mb DWG, please be aware that this could take a while or possibly fail. Are you sure you wish to continue." Or something akin to that.

This is a VERY hard list to build as there are so many variations that make the lines more blurry. I very clean DWG might import fine, or a DWG from AutoCAD may perform better than a DWG from Revit. I think we could get a loose set of guidelines that accounts for this. Here is my completely off the top of my head version of the questions I asked at the beginning.

1. What is the largest SketchUp file you've created? Would you consider it to be efficiently made (a healthy file?) Could you make it smaller? What aspects did you "write off" and just not usable in that large file? How many edges did it have? Faces? Materials?
*- 120 Mb SKP created or edited (these are customer files I've worked with)

Some Yes & Some No
Usually Yes
Shadows, Materials, Some Styles, some Layers
Largest I've seen 2 million+ edges (forgot faces, I always look at edges as my complexity gauge)
Hundreds*
2. What is the largest file you've imported into SketchUp? What kind of file was it? Did you have to alter the file any before you got it to actually import into SketchUp? Did you have to do much clean-up on the file once it was in SketchUp?
*- DWG/DXF - 30-40 Mb // JPG/PNG - 5-10 Mb // TIFF - 10 Mb
Before
DWG I don't create DWG anywhere but SketchUp but have worked with many DWG that needed cleanup before its used, usually to remove BIM data
Raster - I often try to reduce the raster image file size before importing, or crop it to just the data I need
After
DWG - I always clean up after import, removing unnecessary lines, fill faces, purge or combine layers
Raster Images - nothing to clean up, just position*
3. Whats the largest file you've exported from SketchUp? What kind of file did you create? How long did the export take? Did it export successfully on the first try or did you have to adjust your file or export settings some before it worked?
*- Largest exports are always animations though I have no hard numbers. Generally a complex animation is 100Mb+ and takes 1+ hours to export. When I can't export I start turning off export settings before altering the file.
Usually if edits need to be made to the actual file its because the SKP is large/complex and "messy" (bad layer usage, possible flakey geometry such as tesselated faces or unnecessary geometry disconnected from the main drawing.*

To be continued...

mitcorb · 11 Jun 2010, 19:18

Let me ask something in another way:
In Sketchup, if 0,0,0 is the center of the model universe, what are the outer limits, if any, of the theoretical sphere of usable space. I assume the inner limits are 1mm in any direction.
I suppose there are qualifications or dependencies to my question, that I am unable to imagine at this time. If there are, please point them out.
Thanks,
mitcorb

the.pjt · 11 Jun 2010, 23:57

Sketchup uses Only one cpu core . if you have a 4 core cpu ,it only uses 20% cpu in video rendering etc ...

It cant handle large textures .it cant hold many textures and it crushes when you use big images in many materials .
and you cant edit it easily using wireframe metod

we need a better built in Texture tools and uv mapper .plz put plugin : UV tool inside the SU .we have problems with Rendrers .

cant hold many many geometry , and too slow .

when you have some plugins , toolbars become a big problem . and if you just install a new one you should rearrange all toolbars . Please Use tabs for putting toolbars and arenging theme like MS office .

extremly needed : a built in support for curve lines and curved faces ( NURBS . etc ... ) just like layout splines .

some plugins should be builtin like Join Push pull .

a cache or compling metod (if possible) for ruby codes . startup takes very very time if you have some plug-ins . windows prefetch metod makes it start a bit faster but ...

uses these advanced tools in SU pro . and leave SU free ... the free SU should be simple and easy every time .

remus · 13 Jun 2010, 16:42

i think hard numbers about performance limitations are whats being looked for here, not areas where SU could be improved (this is well covered already.)

Edson · 13 Jun 2010, 17:00

@remus said:

i think hard numbers about performance limitations are whats being looked for here, not areas where SU could be improved (this is well covered already.)

agreed, remus. let's not turn this important thread into something else.

jopsa2 · 14 Jun 2010, 16:27

personally, I think Sketchup's limit is extremely high, it's only a question of letting it compute with more than one core.

in regards to file sizes, I have a 100Mb file that works perfectly, with 1M edges and 0.5M faces. It was the result of importing four 20Mb CAD files (topography curves), and letting the sandbox work on it overnight.
I wouldn't say it's touching Sketchup's limit, it orbits fine and behaves very well. I even exported some jpegs and video from it. No ceiling there!

(this video, btw)
YouTube - maqueta valle del aramaio
[flash=480,385:qlsgd4g6]http://www.youtube.com/v/X8arhdTT7-I&hl=en_US&fs=1[/flash:qlsgd4g6]

I definitely learned how to optimise with the Pantheon model, 8.7M edges, 4.7M faces, and the file size never went over 24Mb (until I started texturing). The size actually dropped as I went along and kept optimizing! About exporting, no problem doing video and 9000pix jpegs, other than time.
The file is still workable, orbiting is fine, even with materials switched on. The answer is definitely to make everything a component (86 component definitions, 5000 component instances), and to use layers if it slows down.

Not sure this is what you were asking, it's always fun to brag about whose is bigger

scott_lowe · 16 Jun 2010, 02:28

Hey great question, I hope I can help some.

Firstly, the better the computer & network you are working on, the more pleasant your modeling will be. That being said you need to organize your model well.

To do this:

Use the Organizer! (window>organizer)
Using it will remind you to...
Create groups and components! Everything should at least be grouped or component-ed.
Nest your groups and components! If you have your organizer open and have to scroll around when all of your groups/components are collapsed, then you are not nesting enough. If you are making a 5 story building, then all of your exterior walls should be in an exterior group/component and all of your furniture should be in a furniture group etc. If you are doing a 10 story building then maybe do each floor in a component but things that continue through like elevator cores and plumbing will go in its own component. It is nice to use components for these things since you can export each into its own sketchup file and have a different person responsible for each floor and then reload the component in sketchup. (use the organizer and right click on the component to see the reload option.)
Layers = BAD! Very different than autocad but layers will only confuse you. Have a layer for radically different things that appear in multiple groups. Examples include plants and people. You might have Existing plants be in your Existing Site component and New plants be in your New Site component, but you don't want to see then when you are modeling because they get in your way. To do this effectively; put all geometry in default layer and then put the larger group/component in a layer.
Texture at the end! Use the paint bucket sparingly. Use solid colors when possible and model textures, ie. a modeled shingle wall will look way better than a bitmap one. Do not model detail for things in the background. Use tranparency sparingly as well (if you make a window, make it 2 planes rather than 1 prism, that is 2 faces per window vs 6).
Turn off the sun! The sun will always slow you down. Only turn it on when you are ready to make your images and videos.
Purge unused!
Turn on wireframe to zoom around faster in big models and to step through your walkthroughs.

I hope that helps. I have opened another person's file that was 80+mb and it took like 20 mins to open and save which was a real bummer (turn off autosave if you have this issue). I created a very similar model for a different part of the project that was half the size on disk and opens and saves in less than 5 mins. I think in this way sketchup has a bit of a deadly curve where the bigger your file gets it gets more annoying to deal with at a much quicker rate.

McGyver · 16 Jun 2010, 20:40

This is very interesting topic! I was thinking of somehow asking this same question but could not think of a way of asking it properly. I've been trying to figure out if SU's crummy performance on larger models(hardly medium size to most modeling programs) is due to my crummy computer or something inherently quirky about SU. I love SU. I also love making big complex models. Two great things that don't go great together... I can only hope that future releases of SU will address this issue. For me no matter what conclusions this thread comes to I will probably not have much of a resolution to this issue since my computer is older anyway. Oh well. I have learned one thing others may want to consider... Since the second biggest burden to SU files for me is large textures... I've learned to use colors as place holders for textures until the model is pretty much complete... then I use the Repaint plugin by Smustard to swap out the colors for textures... you still have to have a rough idea when the model might choke, but it helps somewhat.
Repaint: http://www.smustard.com/script/Repaint