Why not use plugins?

thomthom · 21 Nov 2009, 17:14

I hear alarmbells when someone proclaims themselves as "gurus". That's usually people who have reaches a sufficient "good enough" level and assume there's nothing more to learn. Truly skilled people realise there's always more to learn and they are usually less likely to call themselves "gurus".

As for discovering plugins. It was some of my co-workers that demonstrated plugins for me. Think it was the mirror plugin - because I was fresh to SU and was looking for a more literal mirror function.
I then spent time looking at the Library Depot which for a long time was my main source of plugins. Then I discovered SCF.
Since I had scripting experience from PHP, JS, VB etc it felt naturally for me to begin to explore making my own plugins after I grew more reliant of plugins to do my work efficiently.

But most people in my office doesn't use them. There's only a handful of us. But I am planning to do a demonstration in the office. We have a custom of doing a presentation each friday.

thomthom · 21 Nov 2009, 17:18

@tfdesign said:

Essentially what I found is that with most plug-ins (not all), what can be done with a plug-in is possible anyway, it's just a case of knowing the 'tricks of the trade', so to speak (I've also got a BSc degree in engineering with CAD, so that really does help somewhat).

A number of the recent plugins do stuff that's pretty much impossible to do manually.
And some allow you do do repetitive actions in a fraction of the time it takes to do by hand.
In my experience, spending 10-15mins to investigate a new plugin and learn how it works will in the long run save me a great deal of time.

pilou · 21 Nov 2009, 17:19

Maybe using plugins can win some times?
And the life is so short
So I don't understand why not use plugins

And each Guru has always a better Guru over him!

nuclearmoose · 21 Nov 2009, 17:39

I spent a long time working with the WordPress team when that blogging engine was version 0.72, and plugins were, and still are, the best way to achieve many goals without bloating the main core of the application itself. More software programs should take a plugin approach, IMO. Just build a solid foundation and a great API and let others add feature-specific functionality. In that way, the program becomes more of a tool box where you get to pick and choose the things you want, and most critically, ONLY the things you NEED.

When I recently downloaded and started to try to make a serious attempt to learn SU, the first thing I did was start a search for a user-based community and PLUGINS. It may be wrong, but I expect a program like SU to be extensible. Anyway, in a very short time, I found Sketchucation, and I never for a moment hesitated to join. My WordPress experience has taught me a lot about the value of dedicated, fanatical, passionate users.

Sure plugins can add to the learning curve, but as Thomas stated, if I may paraphrase, it's "short term pain for long term gain".

I have a question about an earlier comment regarding a plugin called 'SDS'. What's that?

Sketchucation FTW!

jeff hammond · 21 Nov 2009, 17:41

@tfdesign said:

it's just a case of knowing the 'tricks of the trade'

you're right, all the stuff possible with rubies are possible with native SU tools (though i really wouldn't consider attempting an SDS operation manually). a decent understanding of geometry can get you pretty far in this game but still, what you rather do in this situation:

i have an exploded arc that i need the centerpoint location of.. i can either do it as shown in #1 (and then clean all that up afterwards) or i can go with door #2.. clf's 'arc centerpoint fiinder'..
ya dig?

Ecuadorian · 21 Nov 2009, 17:50

@nuclearmoose said:

I have a question about an earlier comment regarding a plugin called 'SDS'. What's that?

(www.smustard.com)

david. · 21 Nov 2009, 18:26

Personally, I don't use 3rd party plugins. If I need something not built-in, then I'll write the plugin myself. IMO, installing 3rd party plugins is a security issue that is ignored by most (as far as I know). I'm not willing to take the chance on that possibility, even though it may be small.

Marian · 21 Nov 2009, 18:42

I think that's a bit too much paranoia, you can control who's plug-ins you install.
The best plug-ins are also from a handful of guys who are well trusted here, and also being in a big community, you will also see the reaction of others who have used the plug-ins.

solo · 21 Nov 2009, 18:52

Stay away from the 'free-porn.rb'

Aerilius · 21 Nov 2009, 19:05

As plugins are simple text files with a limited 'vocabulary' they don't have the possibility to do much with your computer outside of the Sketchup window. Maybe create millions of spheres and crash Sketchup.
Every one can open .rb (not .rbs) and read what the script does. So if a plugin has been downloaded 1000 times without any critical comments, it will probably do what it should and not create millions of spheres.

But you're right, using ruby files from somewhere in the internet could be risky, especially if it's directly from the search results. A plugin repository where plugins have to pass a review (like for firefox plugins) should be more reliable. SCF is something like repository (although I would like to see a unique repository which is directly connected to Sketchup).

Chris Fullmer · 21 Nov 2009, 19:10

david. does bring up an interesting point, one that I would love to ignore, but Google won't. The reason that Google has given for not being able to create a Google sponsored App store is that ruby opens too many security breaches. Ruby can delete all the contents of your hard drive, install virus, etc. Google has said they can't be responsible for that. So it has been hard to get an app store in plce unfortunately.

Even if the app store scanned the ruby code to see what methods it uses - face.pushpull is safe, but hard_drive.format would not be (I don't think that is the actual name of the method ). So they could scan the code before allowing it to bt uploaded to their app store. But ruby allows code to be downlaoded from anywhere on the internet. So google can't track that, hence a security problem.

For now it has been a non-issue, since all of us coders here seem to be trustworthy so far. But it is still a legitimate concern, for Google and users.

As for myself, I use quite a few ruby's, but interestingly, I do not use a lot of them. And I have not mastered any of the geometry manipulating ones like subdivide and smooth (except shape bender and simple loft). But then, I never need to do that stuff. I mostly model boxy cities. So I might never be a full guru since I don't know how to make organic shapes.

Chris

solo · 21 Nov 2009, 19:34

The SDS (subdivide and smooth) plug-in is a gem as far as organic modeling goes, it extends SU to areas it was not initially created to be, here is a few of many cartoons that if it was not for plug-ins I would never have been able to create.

numbthumb · 21 Nov 2009, 19:41

WoW!!
Th-Th-That's ( Not ) All Folks!

thomthom · 21 Nov 2009, 20:02

@david. said:

Personally, I don't use 3rd party plugins. If I need something not built-in, then I'll write the plugin myself. IMO, installing 3rd party plugins is a security issue that is ignored by most (as far as I know). I'm not willing to take the chance on that possibility, even though it may be small.

How do you decide on what applications you install on your computer?

nuclearmoose · 21 Nov 2009, 20:13

@ecuadorian said:

@nuclearmoose said:

I have a question about an earlier comment regarding a plugin called 'SDS'. What's that?

(www.smustard.com)

Thanks for the link!

PeterCharles · 21 Nov 2009, 20:22

I had a theory as regards ACAD
90% of users used it "out of the box"
90% of the remaining 10% used bespoke keyboard short cuts and scripts they got from others
It was the remaining 1% that actually created the short cuts and scripts.

Why should SketchUp be any different

remus · 21 Nov 2009, 20:37

personally i cant see any good reason for not using plugins. Sure there are a few minor things that might be cause for concern, but when i weigh them up against the amount of time i save using plugins it is incomparable in the extreme.

David, i find your position a little strange. You would willingly invest lots of time redoing whats already been done when checkable ruby exists (in 95% of rubies at least.) Compare that to running binary files on your machine: you have practically zero control over what they actually do and no way of finding out (except in the rare case of an open source program, although this would still likely involve intense scrutiny of a lot of code which could take a long time.) Seems like a contradiction to me.

nuclearmoose · 21 Nov 2009, 20:47

Looking at the development of WordPress would be a great reference tool for establishing similar development of Sketchup plugins. Google seems hesitant, or perhaps outright against the notion of hosting and managing a SU ruby script store. Frankly, we don't need Google for that. Sure, Ruby is capable of doing a lot of nasty things to a computer; WordPress uses JavaScript and PHP and MySQL and trust me, entire web servers can be brought down with the right code inserted into a WordPress-powered site. How is that different that the thousands of extensions available for Mozilla's Firefox browser? or for their email app, Thunderbird? Maybe Apple can protect most iPhone and iPod Touch users, but not for those devices that have been cracked open with jail-breaking software.

My point with all of this is that an effective, safe, and dynamic scripting community can be built for Sketchup. Will there be risks? Yes, but as others have said, coders here have reputations and trust with members. That is the starting point for anyone. If a person is serious about developing for SU, then they know that they must build real trust with the community.

A plugin repository, managed for and by users, is the only way to go. People will look at the code, and they can ask questions. Experienced users can point out obvious issues, and even perhaps outright hostile code. WordPress had all of these issues -- and discussions -- early on, and it was decided that it was going to be up to the community to police itself. Really, isn't that the best way? Now WordPress probably has THOUSANDS of plugins, and they range from very professional, well-coded to the first time unoptimized code of beginners. The cream makes it way to the top, to the point where many of these plugin developers create business opportunities for themselves.

We, as a user base, can't dictate or control where Sketchup goes as an application. However, as a strong, united, viable and active community, we would carry a lot of influence into the future of the program. While WordPress, the core program, is open-source, it is still under tight control, almost, but not quite like Google has total control over Sketchup. However, the developers over there at WordPress.org work to create a better API all the time, offering the theme and plugin communities more and more tools to access and use. All of them benefit, and most especially, the average WordPress user benefits, without knowing a single line of code.

I don't dismiss people's concerns about potential issues that can be created by bad or illicit code, but from my own experience, those concerns can, and do, get addressed all the time. The bad guys try something new, and the community rushes in to fix the problem. It's always there, but by far, the vast majority of plugins do nothing but help people build better web sites and web experiences.

By the way, I'm not a WordPress dot Com employee or anything, and I'm not even a coder. I'm just a bit of an evangelist for a program that I have seen grow from a baby into a grown-up. It gets better all the time, and a LOT of people are enjoying the benefits.

Sketchucation is already a great community. I've only been here a short while and I see a lot of parallels to my WordPress experience. You all know that on the internet, one thing you have of value is your name, and therefore your reputation. Building a formal plugin community would leverage that, and, as I hopefully have shown with this far-too-long-post, is something that is not only possible, but desirable.

d12dozr · 21 Nov 2009, 21:23

@chris fullmer said:

So, why don't people use plugins? Do they just not realize how useful they can be?

For people who do use them, how did you start?

When I started SU, I didn't understand what a plugin was. I figured if it wasn't included in the program from the developer, I didn't need it. Further, I didn't want to mess with the program files and break something.

That changed when I discovered Weld, and how easy it is to install them. Now, I just try to keep up with all the new plugins so I know whats available, but I don't install one unless I have a specific need for it. I don't like the clutter from too many plugins.

Gaieus · 22 Nov 2009, 10:36

I started to use plugins fairly early - not too much after I finally read the SU Guide (you know the feeling as to "RTFM") and discovered the Ruby section of the old @Last forums then Smustard and the Ruby Library Depot. Then I tried almost every plugin whose description interested me and surely my menus soon started to be cluttered so nowadays I also just use the ones I really need but of course, that's the point in these plugins.

@aerilius said:

As plugins are at the user's own risk, users would have to agree to the terms of use before installing a possible "SCF ruby store and auto-update"-plugin.
I'm not shure about "the user's own risk" and "agree to terms of use". Would this be enough? SCF is no person and can not withstand a court case.

Well, we already have the Extensions index although it is a bit abandoned project at the time and its core also needs some revamping.
And for a while, SketchUcation is functioning as a "company " (registered in Ireland in Spring or Summer last year) so we could indeed take legal responsibility (although I am not sure if I wished to do that)