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Do humans have a free will?

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  • S Offline
    sorgesu
    last edited by 23 Oct 2008, 22:19

    Oy Vey!,

    Signed Yeshua of Nazareth.

    Susan Sorger
    Former Seller Hand Rendered Entourage
    Former Canadian Authorized Training Centre, SketchUp

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    • A Offline
      Alan Fraser
      last edited by 23 Oct 2008, 22:38

      There is no definitive New Testament in terms of being the "Truth" as opposed to erroneous. The N.T. canon is simply those books that Athanasius of Alexandria decided ought to be included (from a much larger selection) in AD 367. This decision was given further weight by virtue of the same limited number of books being repeated by the Pope about 20 years later.

      It's simply an anthology; whether you add a few more texts that were edited-out or miss out a few of the ones that are included has no bearing on its veracity.

      3D Figures
      Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
      You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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      • M Offline
        Mike Lucey
        last edited by 23 Oct 2008, 22:52

        @sorgesu said:

        Oy Vey!,

        Signed Yeshua of Nazareth.

        😆 Susan, I only have an idea at what this means 👍

        Cornel, I simply cannot understand what you write. Could you
        put your answers in plain English that will be able to understand.

        Alan, looks like you went to Sunday School. I 'ducked out' of
        a lot of it BUT I was an Alter Boy, would you belive?

        Mike

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        • M Offline
          Mike Lucey
          last edited by 23 Oct 2008, 23:03

          Cornel,

          I don't think I am going to get anywhere with this debate as I
          am unable to understand the terms and way you have of speaking.
          This is a pity, but not to worry, I presume we will find out
          truth sometime in the future? I'm quite looking forward to it 👍

          Do you partake in a drink? If so you might can to have a look
          at the 'My Corner Bar' topic? I imagine it will, in time, feature
          many of the drinking troughs that members frequent.

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          • M Offline
            Mike Lucey
            last edited by 23 Oct 2008, 23:12

            Susan, I could not resist looking up what it meant, 'Oh My God!'

            I also ran a search on Yeshua of Nazareth and low and behold,
            wouldn't you know it, he is on Facebook!,
            http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeshua_De_Nazareth/781483426
            and there is even a Susan listed as one of his friends that
            looks a little like you!


            JC is on Facebook!.jpg

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            • M Offline
              Mike Lucey
              last edited by 23 Oct 2008, 23:14

              ..... and he lives near you. Come on! Spill the beans Susan?

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              • D Offline
                david_h
                last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 00:03

                Why is Philemon part of the Bible? It is just a personal letter From Paul to Philemon about a runaway slave. It has no Moral message or teaching whatsoever. The Song of Solomon is a love poem. . .amd believe me Solomon had a lot to sing about! 💚

                Point is, the Bible is the Word of God, Just not the Whole Word. Read the Book Of Mormon.

                If I make it look easy...It is probably easy

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                • S Offline
                  sorgesu
                  last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 00:24

                  Mike you are so funny. He lives at the opposite end of the country near me, but sure, whatever you say.
                  Just to hit you over the head with it "Jesus" was not Jesus's name. That is Romanized. He was Jewish and his name was Jeshua but I wrote it the way it is pronounced. I signed as though I were he, a good Jew to the end.

                  Susan Sorger
                  Former Seller Hand Rendered Entourage
                  Former Canadian Authorized Training Centre, SketchUp

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                  • C Offline
                    cornel
                    last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 00:44

                    Mike,

                    1. To simplify the answer for your questions:
                      “Christianity is based on what we have in the bible or is it
                      just the second part of the Bible?
                      Judaism in not the 'true' religion so why was Christianity
                      started by his followers?”

                    …I tell you that in New Test. ‘is discovered’ Old Test. and in Old Test. ‘is hidden’ New Test..
                    They are inseparable!
                    All denominations, that add or subtract something (not only written text) to/from The Bible, are erroneous!

                    1. For this questionable ‘motive’:
                      “As regards animals not having souls / spirits. I can see no
                      reason why they would not have one if they actually exist in
                      the first place. Have you a reason for saying this?”

                    … my proposal is to start using a dictionary…! Are there animals related w/ “souls/spirits”?!
                    Is "the soul" equivalent w/ "the spirit"?!!..., because we have tu use the same 'language' in explaining...
                    Cornel

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                    • S Offline
                      sorgesu
                      last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 01:24

                      BTW Mike, to make it abundantly clear about "Oy Vey" in context of the discussion that preceded, :

                      translated by Random House Unabridged Dictionary as being "used to express dismay, pain, annoyance, grief, etc

                      Susan Sorger
                      Former Seller Hand Rendered Entourage
                      Former Canadian Authorized Training Centre, SketchUp

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                      • M Offline
                        Mike Lucey
                        last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 02:22

                        Yeah, Susan I did see that but, 'Oh My God' is much the same.

                        No word from Cornel, I wonder is he is taking some pics of
                        his local pub?

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                        • C Offline
                          cornel
                          last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 03:07

                          "word from Cornel", my friends,

                          To have a free will, you must know which are the ‘components’ of human beings.
                          For many of you,the soul is identical with the spirit, but (a big but!) they aren’t the same …!?

                          Behold a few examples, to see that they are different ‘representations’ (notions):

                          1. “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of souland of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”(Hebrews 4:12)

                          2. “Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and souland body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
                            (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

                          3. "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soulis well pleased. I will put my Spiritupon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.”
                            (Matthew 12:18)

                          Just think of them!
                          Re. the Cross, when Jesus said, “”Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.” (Luke 23:46)
                          … can you comprehend the sense of the term “spirit”??!

                          You cannot…, but you declare that animals have spirit, like yours?!!
                          (Congo70 wrote: "Bravo! Its worse than having a brain tumor.")

                          Cornel
                          (P.S.: Mike, practically you were in attendance for a “word from Cornel”, for your amusement, weren’t you? Perhaps your soul and spirit will became more important…!?!)

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                          • T Offline
                            tomsdesk
                            last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 03:47

                            Nice try, Jakob...would have been very interesting indeed: pity!

                            http://www.tomsdesk.moonfruit.com/
                            2.5D Trees & Shrubs!

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                            • T Offline
                              tomsdesk
                              last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 04:12

                              But, damn the risk of foolishness, I do think humans have free will...and animals too!

                              One may be hard-wired and soft-wared to have no control over wanting to gut one's neighbor (like the fish he is :`) every time he speaks, but doesn't the choice (for most of us) of not acting on those "instinctual" and/or "programed" thoughts prove the concept free will...or we all just walking timebombs looking for the right, or wrong, trigger?

                              I watch my cats "choose" all the time. Watch them decide to ignore instinct...which is greatly rewarding, to pursue another course of action...one producing no apparent reward at all. Free will? I think so!

                              http://www.tomsdesk.moonfruit.com/
                              2.5D Trees & Shrubs!

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                              • S Offline
                                Stinkie
                                last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 06:18

                                @alan fraser said:

                                Seriously, I do believe we have free will. You can test it empirically by making some minor decisions..."Do I choose A or B?" You then need to run that choice threw a few filters to ensure that you didn't arrive at it by the coercion of being predetermined to make such a choice in the first place...do you accept the result, do you perversely switch to the other choice, or do you toss a coin. You could do this several times, making snap decisions which filter to apply...or whether to apply one at all. The final result will be the result of a free will decision. It may be over something inconsequential but all you are doing is proving the concept.

                                Wouldn't being both the test subject as the, errrrr, tester compromise the validity of the experiment to some extent? Besides that ... a peer group of one? 😄

                                Wouldn't that make the experiment, what's it called, rationalist (Descartes) in nature, rather than empirical?

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                                • A Offline
                                  Alan Fraser
                                  last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 06:28

                                  Yes it would, which is why you can run around in circles forever. Unfortunately, as free will is an entirely internal process, the subject is the only one that can actually determine whether they are exercising it or not. An external tester can determine responses, but has no way of determining whether such responses are biologically/sociologically/environmentally determined or are genuinely the result of free will.
                                  There are debates on free will all over the Net...even in physics forums. No one has yet come up with a definitive yes or no, it's all anecdotal.

                                  3D Figures
                                  Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
                                  You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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                                  • D Offline
                                    dazza
                                    last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 07:48

                                    @unknownuser said:

                                    1. Re. “animals", at first, they have no spirit…!

                                    What a load of hooey!
                                    My animals show more soul and spirit than most "humans" and sure as "hell" don't go around quoting religious text before committing acts of mass genocide & other atrocities.

                                    All people have the right to stupidity but some abuse the privilege.

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                                    • A Offline
                                      Alan Fraser
                                      last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 08:08

                                      Get my name right.
                                      It's Yessua bar Youssef. Oy Vey! 😉

                                      Seriously, I do believe we have free will. You can test it empirically by making some minor decisions..."Do I choose A or B?" You then need to run that choice threw a few filters to ensure that you didn't arrive at it by the coercion of being predetermined to make such a choice in the first place...do you accept the result, do you perversely switch to the other choice, or do you toss a coin. You could do this several times, making snap decisions which filter to apply...or whether to apply one at all. The final result will be the result of a free will decision. It may be over something inconsequential but all you are doing is proving the concept.
                                      Ultimately it's one of those circular arguments, like asking "Do I exist or do I only think I exist?" that Descartes wrestled with.

                                      Cornel, I'm afraid I simply don't buy the "Inspired by God" reasoning. I'm not going to indulge in more history, but those decisions made way back then had far more to do with maintaining the status quo, preventing religious schism and shoring up a collapsing Roman Empire than they did about anything else. It's classic case of history being written by the victors...or in this case by those who's views and ideas prevailed...not because they were inspired by God, but because the political establishment of the time threw its weight behind them.

                                      3D Figures
                                      Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
                                      You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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                                      • A Offline
                                        Alan Fraser
                                        last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 08:25

                                        If animals don't have a spirit and man does, I'd be very interested in hearing about at precisely what point in human evolution he acquired one...and it better not involve any magic spells, fairy dust or conjuring tricks.

                                        3D Figures
                                        Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
                                        You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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                                        • soloS Offline
                                          solo
                                          last edited by 24 Oct 2008, 09:50

                                          Alan, I doubt Cornel believes in evolution.

                                          http://www.solos-art.com

                                          If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.

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