Anti-SketchUp! Snobbery [or Ignorance?]
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I think it is safe to say that most people who are "snobbish" toward SU are unaware of it's capabilities. I've gotten more than one "wow, you did that on SU?" comment.
Mirjman, your comments about SU in acadamia are true for all programs. I've reviewed quite a few student projects produced on autocad that were banal because their knowledge of the program was limited.
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I'm Coming late to this discussion, but I do feel there is a bit of snobbery in relation to SU. Just like everything else, many people look at price as defining quality. Of course this is very wrong, but it is a fact of life. If you payed $5000 for your design software, you must be better and more skilled than someone who payed $500.
In my world I run into those, and another type of snob. These are the people who think that if you work on a computer you are a lesser designer. They consider you a "technician/craftsman" which they think of as the category of mediocrity. This means of course that you are incapable of creating something truly artistic.
I've heard this several times. Most recently I was told by a production that they wanted someone who could also hand draft shop plans with a pencil and paper. I said I could do it but why? "Computer drafting just doesn't have that artistic feel" they said. (In my work, plans used by the shop, invariably end up on the floor, and finally in the garbage.) My response was that this was not illustration or rendering, it was just information for the builders. In fact, as these plans are for movie/TV sets, the whole thing is fake anyway. Only the look of the finished product is important, not the look of the construction info. Ah, ignorance.
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@unknownuser said:
Most recently I was told by a production that they wanted someone who could also hand draft shop plans with a pencil and paper. I said I could do it but why? "Computer drafting just doesn't have that artistic feel" they said. (In my work, plans used by the shop, invariably end up on the floor, and finally in the garbage.) My response was that this was not illustration or rendering, it was just information for the builders. In fact, as these plans are for movie/TV sets, the whole thing is fake anyway. Only the look of the finished product is important, not the look of the construction info.
The more we talk about this, the more laughable the idea of "industry standard production" becomes. The worse firm I ever worked for had a "traditional skills only" attitude. They hand drew, marker rendered and air brushed everything. Total waste of time.
The firm did have one token Mac Designer who only used Illustrator. I think the most futile human endeavour I have seen that didn't involve life and death had to be watching token Mac guy trying to do a two point perspective in Illustrator of a store interior complete with hundreds of "rendered" products. It took him about a week to painstakingly apply and tweak gradients, then he gave up. I left shortly after, the firm went bust a year later.
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@unknownuser said:
I think the most futile human endeavour I have seen that didn't involve life and death had to be watching token Mac guy trying to do a two point perspective in Illustrator of a store interior complete with hundreds of "rendered" products. It took him about a week to painstakingly apply and tweak gradients, then he gave up. I left shortly after, the firm went bust a year later.
That would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful!
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Morning Jackson
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haha, morning Jon! Up to anything at the weekend?, etc, etc, office smalltalk, etc, etc, how about that result in Paris huh?
I'd never thought of it as such, but this is a global office! Coffee? -
Well, actually, I'm about to skive off for an hour on a driving lesson, I'll get us some biscuits while I'm out
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I own a small remodeling company and my drawings are used during the bidding stage to help clients visualize their project, I've used a cad program that cost a bit more than SU and took quite a bit longer to learn how to use. I was a SU skeptic, my 17 year old son introduced me to SU so I really didn't think much of it at the time. However I downloaded the 8 hr. trial, visited the old Google forum, and SCF for tips and tricks (not to mention all the great works that can be seen here). It goes without saying that I was sold. Now I mostly use SU for visualizations (so much quicker), still use cad for working drawings when needed but what a drag compared to SU. I believe the turn off of Su for some people is first off, the name, it does sound rather childish, secondly I would think is the fact that there is a free version and the pro version is inexpensive when compared to some cad programs, and third is the quick and easy learning curve though I seem to learn something new here everyday. So how can something that sounds childish, cost a little, and is easy to learn be a powerful program? I think if more of these "snobs" actually tried SU there would be a lot less of them.
Mike
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Interesting debate . . . . despite the (obvious) genius of Sketchup, Architect's still need to supply clients (and local authorities) 2D plans and with dimensions and text. A Client recently asked us (annoyingly) "can your software do basic plan views? The 3D stuff looks 'too good', and makes it look like the work will be too expensive' my Main Board wont sign this off unless I give them a simple plain plan view that looks cheaper."
We gave them the simple plan view. But SU's has an achilles heel when you try to produce 2D plans with text and hatching to the standard that traditional CAD can.
If you are doing a live presentation for a Client and feeling inferior and downtrodden by the little sketchup logo at the top of your screen . . someone on the old board gave me a link to an app called WinSpy which lets you rename the title bar at the top of the window to whatever you like. So rather than 'model 4 - sketchup' it might say 'model 4 - ZEN CAD' or whatever you like.
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@stuartb said:
an app called WinSpy which lets you rename the title bar at the top of the window to whatever you like. So rather than 'model 4 - sketchup' it might say 'model 4 - ZEN CAD' or whatever you like.
Neat- I think I'll rename it SuperDuperHiTechCommandLineTookMe10YearsJustToGetTheBasicsDownAndIHadToRemortgageMyHouseToBuyItCAD (Version 53.1.2.2.)
p.s. a planning department officer told me a couple of days ago that they prefer elevations without shadows- he said they find them confusing!
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Jackson, you realise they just released version 53.1.2.3 of that last week. Your old files won't open unless you pay for the 'upgrade'!
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@stuartb said:
Jackson, you realise they just released version 53.1.2.3 of that last week. Your old files won't open unless you pay for the 'upgrade'!
Dammit!
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Hello Friends. This is only my 2nd post in this entire forum, but I have been an SU user since V. 2.0. I think it is amazing. I started out as a Traditional hand renderer. I still do that. I generated Persp. by hand for years. I did Autocad, form Z, etc. etc. All too slow, learning curve too steep. I needed a program that I could learn quickly--generate 3Ds quickly, giving my clients multiple views, print out and render over the top. Saves me time. I make more money. I have introduced Sketchup to the College I teach at. It is now in the curriculum. I introduced it into the large organization that I work for (I am an architect for the LDS Church)--it is now S.O.P for a lot of my colleagues! Yeah, we have Max, Z and all the others, but SU is faster and eases the workflow for a lot of us who just hate muddling thru acad. I still use SU in all my work. I am learning Max, only to add another arrow to my quiver so to speak, but I always think about how I can just drop my SU models into max and render from there. I use Podium too. Awesome. Simple does not mean simplistic. Su is a very sophisticated tool--is there stuff that I wish it could do better? yeah. but that is probably cuz I don't pay enuff attention to the forums to find out how other folks have solved my issues. SU is terrific.
(paid for by the Friends of SketchUP)
P: David_H
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Thanks for sharing David! And welcome to this forum! I'm very happy to meet you and am honored by your long standing support!
I look forward to reading more of your ideas and perhaps on ways to improve SketchUp!
Cheers,
- CraigD
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I think fear and ignorance play a big part in the snobbery. I just yesterday sat through a BIM briefing at my firm by some AutoDesk folks. They were introducing our Revit implementation team to the product and concepts, and at one point a designer asked about the file exchange between Sketchup and Revit. The AutoDesk presenter went on to say "why would you want to do your conceptual mass modeling in Sketchup when you can do it in revit and get real time feedback on the model - that is precise and accurate to boot" Well....let's just say they got an earfull about how they didn't know much about skecthup if they didn't think it was accurate, and if they ever get even close to Revit being as intuitive for modeling as sketchup is - they would have a lot more users.
I felt like a proud parent when he stood up for Sketchup like this. This is the same guy that took me a while to convince him to even look at sketchup. I think it is becoming clear that the design software vendors are all a little envious of the ease of use we have come to love!
Bytor
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I think a lot of these Cad guys don't get the fact that in SU you can think so intuitively whereas in Revit or Archicad, you are having to "think" thru so much from the outset.--What kind of walls are they. Archicad and Revit are cool. I am all for BIMMing, as far as that goes, but With SU you can just dive in a draw. I like that.
By the way. ..That's my Dog. .. Phoebe the WonderHound!
P: David_H
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@unknownuser said:
...By the way. ..That's my Dog. .. Phoebe the WonderHound!
Hello Phoebe and hello David. I agree 100% with what you said. I use Revit and SU both and with SU it is almost like you don't have to think about how you are going to create something, you just do.
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Bytor, I went to a similar Autodesk seminar for a Revit Architecture demonstration, the Autodesk sales rep, when asked about SU integration, replied "Sketchup is an amateur product, it is only a complimentary product to the Autodesk vertical product range". I thought that was rather smug considering Autodesk bought Revit from another company. And then he spent half an hour drawing a standing seam zinc roof that could have been drawn in SU much quicker.
Have to say though, I do like Revit. I hope one day SU includes that level of functionality or there is a BIM plugin.
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Call me ignorant, but when I hear fanboy type of comments without proper substantiated motivation I excuse myself and walk away. I don't need that in my life.
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apart from everything you said before, which i agree with, i would add 2 more:
- SU brought back to me the pleasure i felt in the past when drawing with pen and pencil.
- with SU i can actually design in 3D. with all the other apps i worked till last year my concentration had to be on my actions not on the project itself. not anymore.
i eagerly await for SU 7 to see what improvements they will be able to bring us, but i do not think SU should become a do-all app. no need to have a rendering engine if there are so many in the market, paid or free. this is true for a number of features people have been suggesting to google.
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