Finally gone back(i mean forward) to a PC!
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@andybot said:
no, my point being there's a cost to buying apple products that is not purely justified by base line performance.
well i decided to see myself and i think just going to the apple site vs trying to navigate hp's site is worth any extra cost of the computers
it doesn't seem like you can spec out one of their all in ones as a cad machine (2.2ghz was the fastest cpu offered in those).. so the desktop which is similarly configured as my iMac is this:
it's entirely arguable what a similar display would be as the iMac but i think this one is probably similar a 27" 2560x1440.. not the cheapest and not the priciest:
i'm pretty sure this is a fair comparison, component wise - agree?
so it's ~$2300 for the pc setup vs the ~$2450 i spent on my iMac..**
maybe i'm not thrifty enough but i really don't see much of a difference there.. but maybe that's just me..
regardless, for the third time (i'll just copy/paste this time)--
"""nowhere do you see me saying apple computers are cheaper than other brands.. that's not what i'm trying to say.. what i am saying is that they're not insanely priced relatively speaking and they're actually quite competitive price wise."""
**granted, i'm comparing a refurb mac to a full price hp.. i saved around $500 off normal price with the refurb.
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since this is the corner bar, I'll keep going. You still are missing the point. I'm willing to trade the convenience of a one-stop-shop for the reduced cost of building my own boxes. I can get a much more powerful (and overclockable) computer for significantly less cost. It would be just as pointless for me to shop on the HP site as it would be for me to shop at the apple site.
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@andybot said:
since this is the corner bar, I'll keep going. You still are missing the point. I'm willing to trade the convenience of a one-stop-shop for the reduced cost of building my own boxes. I can get a much more powerful (and overclockable) computer for significantly less cost. It would be just as pointless for me to shop on the HP site as it would be for me to shop at the apple site.
i really don't think i'm missing your point.. just that i'm talking to a larger crowd. (as in -- nowhere do i think i've even hinted at macs being competitively priced against a build-ur-own box.)
or- your argument isn't necessarily mac vs. pc pricing... it's mac AND pc vs. build your own.
thing is.. if only a handful of people are using macs... then only a handful of that handful are building their own computers.. most people, by far, are buying their computers pre-built / brand names and that's what i'm talking about..
but of course you can bypass the manufacturers and build/support/maintain it yourself.. that's an argument in itself of whether or not it's worth the saving$ vs. time&know-how to do it yourself but statistics wise, i'm thinking you'll find around 95% of people prefer to pay for convenience.
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OK. You have £1500 to spend. No refurbs or second hand. You must have a full warranty on all parts.
Buy an iMac. Buy a PC. Build a PC.
Click render.
Which one will be quicker?
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@olishea said:
OK. You have £1500 to spend. No refurbs or second hand. You must have a full warranty on all parts.
Buy an iMac. Buy a PC. Build a PC.
Click render.
Which one will be quicker?
quicker at what?
you could go buy a mac or pc, plug it in, install the rendering software, and complete a render-faster than-
going to buy all the individual parts, assembling them, then plugging in/installing/rendering.
that said, if the above scenario is your criteria for choosing a computer then we're just different.. different enough that i don't think either of us would change the other's mind.
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@olishea said:
No refurbs or second hand. You must have a full warranty on all parts.
Apple Store refurbs have the same warranty as new Macs: 14 day return / 90 day support / 1 yr warranty / Apple Care available. So no reason to exclude them from consideration.
That said, I don't think Jeff or anyone else thinks that you can't get more rendering power for less cash in a build-your-own scenario than any other.
The actual cost comparison should include the soft costs (including the value of the many hours spent researching/purchasing/assembling/loading OS & Drivers etc...). For most if us, we want to use the tool to get work done, not work to get the tool done.
For me, the f.ck-around factor —and hours spent trouble-shooting things that should work but don't (incompatible components/driver issues etc..)— isn't worth the cash saved.
If it is for you, great! Happy that you like your new box as much as I like my new Mac.
No doubt we each bought something —as did Jeff— that meets our current needs well. -
@unknownuser said:
Buy a PC. Build a PC.
Click render.
Which one will be quicker?
Mine, a ~ six years old dual xeon macpro. You gonna bet? ( a pc ~ 1500 euros, right?)
Click render. A CPU based render, right?
GPU renders are depended on the GPU card and nothing else. I can install any commercial GPU you like. -
@michaliszissiou said:
Any advices about a new decent mouse? A decent desktop mouse, not these gamer's mice with 40 buttons, I mean.
I just got this one a few months ago, and it works awesome ($11): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IAM78WS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8%26amp;psc=1
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Lets do a comparison.
Apple Mac pro 6 core $3999.00
Mac Pro - Technical Specifications
See all the technical specifications for Mac Pro with the M2 Ultra chip.
Apple (www.apple.com)
For the same machine built by JNCS is $3433.00
Sure the Apple looks great in it's shiny black drum.
The thing is I do not mind Mac workstations, one can pick up really good priced ones on Craigslist, the problem is I do not want Apple OS, so if I could install Windows and not Mac OS I'd consider it, and the new ones come with AMD/ATI GPU's, no good for rendering. (not CUDA)
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Sure, ten years ago building a PC could be rather hit or miss. Things seem to be much better quality nowadays. It's also possible to buy a DIY kit, where they've already figured out the compatibility: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.2144880 or just a budget PC with a decent processor: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE%26amp;IsNodeId=1%26amp;N=100019096%20600014723
Like Pete mentions, there are also small shops that can build whatever you need.
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15%26amp;t=50941%26amp;start=45
Also, once you have a case and peripherals, it's very easy to upgrade, instead of having to buy everything new. (I still have a 15 year old dell case that I use for a home server. It's on its third or fourth motherboard and an upgraded PSU) -
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to any of this!
Each has its pros and cons. My gripes with Apple really aren't based on the price as I keep saying.
Buit if a Mac Vs PC war makes everyone happy, then please, go ahead
Pilou thanks for reminding me about Verve! Great fun, I will share some paintings!
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And FYI, building the PC took me just over 2 hours and I enjoyed it. They call it a "LEGO build" for that reason. No problems with anything.
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@pete.
it's going to be interesting to see how cuda vs openCL plays out.my understanding is that one isn't inherently more powerful than the other.. just that cuda up til recently has been easier for devs to work with. apple is fully backing openCL and they often have success in these types of 'battles' (html5 vs flash for example). final cut is a great example of what's possible with openCL. hopefully others jump on board too (as in- for consumers, openCL is way better.. it runs on any gpu as well as cpu)
indigo is going the openCL route in v4.. I haven't had a chance to try a beta yet but the preview looks sweet. how is Thea coming along with openCL? still nada?
fwiw, this was a consideration for me when buying a computer last year so I got the imac w/ nvidia as a holdover until I see gen 2 or 3 of the new Mac pro.
funny thing is though-- now that I have the imac, I'm really hyped on it for most of the stuff I do.. it really is a sweet CAD machine (rhino & Sketchup at least).. not sure if I really want or even need a Mac pro now
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This one seems very cool for MAC! (Free beta) after maybe 50 bucks!
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Jeff
See link, OpenCL is in the works
At the end of the day it is not really the hardware (well Apple going all in with AMD maybe) that makes me not want a Mac, it's the software, I do not like the Apple operating system, I have an iMac (7 years old now, bought new) I bought it when Vista dissapointed, however Windows 7,8 and 10 are all fantastic.
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Yeah, let's all kiss and Mac up
Oh wait a minute, let me just boot up windows to run "reconciliation.exe" as I can't find a Mac version.
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@olishea said:
OK. You have £1500 to spend. No refurbs or second hand. You must have a full warranty on all parts.
Buy an iMac. Buy a PC. Build a PC.
Click render.
Which one will be quicker?
that's a loaded question...
however, consider this, which s going to be the quickest when something breaks down?
- iMac: all-in-one machine; send it in, they send it away to be repaired, it gets sent back when it's repaired, you collect, hopefully a wipe and reinstall was not required and you can just continue working.
- Buy-a-PC: as above but few PC's come as all-in-one machines, all in one machines follow same procedure as above, where monitor and tower is separate only the one of the two malfunctioning needs to be sent in.
- Build-a-PC: if you went this route chances are you're doing it yourself, and can easily find the culprit, get a faulty part swopped out / replaced rather quickly, and off you go - no waiting on shipping times and wait in line until technician can look at it.
Obviously the above does not take laptops into account, you're pretty much in the same boat as iMac & Buy-a-PC when going this route.
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@juju said:
however, consider this, which s going to be the quickest when something breaks down?
if you depend on your computer for work, you better have a back up.. or at the very least, the means to buy a new computer in the event of a fail.. as well as backed up data.
that aside, why does the iMac have to get sent away etc? like, where are you getting that idea from?
apple aren't the only people allowed to repair macs under warranty (or out of warranty).. there are authorized service centers as well.. probably about 40 of them in my town.. one is a couple blocks away from me.
if you're in a rush, you can usually get something fixed same day.
and that also aside, iMacs aren't welded shut nor are the parts inside all soldered together.. you can fix it yourself if you're so inclined.
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@jeff hammond said:
that aside, why does the iMac have to get sent away etc? like, where are you getting that idea from?
Well when my iMac screen steamed up and hard drive started failing, they told me to take it to the Genius Bar. So had to walk through a shopping centre with a huge iMac.
They would absolutely not take it away by courier.They wiped the screen and gave it back 2 days later. Replaced hard drive.
Steamed up again immediately. Had to take it back to the shopping centre. They wiped the screen and gave it back?!
They said trees in my area must have increased the humidity causing screen to steam up?!!Steamed up again, this time I refused to take it anywhere and they had a courier pick it up along with my macbook pro which had coincidentally suddenly failed (logic board). The macbook pro case was also warping and distorting from the heat, it was a common fault that Apple denied. This was all during a university deadline.
Sent away to Amsys repair centre by Apple under warranty.
Amsys superficially damaged both machines. Dented the macbook pro so badly and claimed I must have dropped it. They also gouged the bezel on my iMac. Again, claiming I was responsible.
What the cheeky little b*stards didn't realise.....I had taken HD videos of both dent-free computers before I sent them away. I even had the CNN homepage open on both screens so they couldn't say the videos had been recorded months before. I treated both my machines very well indeed and this video really covered my ass.
So....Apple said they are refusing to repair both machines because "I had abused and dropped them". The macbook case had warped and twisted because I had dropped it. According to them.
I sent them the video. Silence. No more cocky Apple customer service trying to argue with me.
A week later, both computers were delivered with brand new cases and bezel. All problems fixed with a huge apology from Apple.
Couple of weeks later I sold the macbook pro and the iMac screen steamed up again.
It's still steamed up, but I don't care. I just use it for browsing the web now.
So yeah, not all Apple repairs go as smoothly as you claim! Maybe the US customer service is less obstructive but over here it stinks. They immediately try and blame you rather than say sorry and repair it.
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